|  | Topic : Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune |  |
| | | Keets | | Set |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 24/02/2009 | | Posts | : | 453 | | Location | : | Australia |
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| | Posted : 08 May 2010 - 06:10 Post title : Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune | | | I went in to see my dealer today to check on some bling I ordered and we got to talking. Long story short we stuck the BB tune in it.
Definitely the way to go, torque returned, still good response and the "cracking" on decel is back to a deep thud. Do it.
| Cruisin' on thru the junction i'm flyin' 'bout the speed of sound
Noticin' peculiar function i ain't no roller coaster show me down.
I turned away to see her woa! she caught my eye
But i was rollin' down movin' too fast;
...Doh!
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| | | zolti | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 23/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,127 | | Location | : | newcastle , United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 08 May 2010 - 17:01 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | | hey keets is that a 1600 and the crossover is that no cat?
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| | | Thatch | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 24/06/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,655 | | Location | : | Savannah, GA, United States |
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| | Posted : 08 May 2010 - 17:21 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: zolti) | |
| | | mad_angler1 | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 18/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 511 | | Location | : | United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 08 May 2010 - 22:51 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | |
Keets wrote:
I went in to see my dealer today to check on some bling I ordered and we got to talking. Long story short we stuck the BB tune in it.
Definitely the way to go, torque returned, still good response and the "cracking" on decel is back to a deep thud. Do it.
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It's not a bad idea as by my calculations the extra 100cc would equate to around 6% more fuel on the bb tune, that ahold be an ideal amount to add if the bike is tuned lean, I take it from ur post u also niticed a drop in torque with the cat by pass ?
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| | | Keets | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 24/02/2009 | | Posts | : | 453 | | Location | : | Australia |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 00:23 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: mad_angler1) | | | Oops sorry guys...yup correct on both counts
Mad: Seat of the pants dyno isn't always as accurate as it could be, the quarter mile dyno is the best measurement lol. I wasn't sure when I had the crossover done but I had short run with a couple of HDs a couple of weeks later, one a 96 and one an EFI 88 . Usually it cleans them up no problems, on that occasion it didn't get it done quite as easily. After the swap yesterday the 'Bird pulled stronger from low RPM all the way through the mid range with extra torque. The bike is also smoother, it rides more like stock than it did after the cat removal.
The bike was definitely on the lean side, now she's happy again. A bit quicker than stock + 20lbs lighter from the cat-ectomy.
On a separate not, I had a look at a dyno sheet yesterday and a 1600 with staintunes went 65hp ATW and the BB went 87 hp ATW.
| Cruisin' on thru the junction i'm flyin' 'bout the speed of sound
Noticin' peculiar function i ain't no roller coaster show me down.
I turned away to see her woa! she caught my eye
But i was rollin' down movin' too fast;
...Doh!
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| | | daz | | Zeus | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 00:52 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | | It makes a huge difference. When i got TORs i ran them for a week with stock tune till i could get to the dealer. It ran weaker than stock, very noticable. With the tune it rand stronger than stock. I can't wait to see what the tuneboy can do for us ! By the way, no way the BB dynos 23HP over stock or stock w/pipes. triumph says 15 HP for the BB with TORs too. And thats at the crank. So 23 is way off. Had to be a dyno error....two different dynos or operator error or some such thing.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | Keets | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 24/02/2009 | | Posts | : | 453 | | Location | : | Australia |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 01:39 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: daz) | | | It was a dynodynamics rig, same operator. I don't personally know the operator or his shop so I can say if he has a happy dyno plus there wasn't the usual raft of AFRs, temps etc on the sheet to check for shenanigans.
Correction, my fat mate just reminded me that it was 67stock with pipes and 85 with pipes and BB. So it's actually 18hp...much more in line with Triumph numbers.
| Cruisin' on thru the junction i'm flyin' 'bout the speed of sound
Noticin' peculiar function i ain't no roller coaster show me down.
I turned away to see her woa! she caught my eye
But i was rollin' down movin' too fast;
...Doh!
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 05:53 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | | Moreso, yes. But still about 6HP over when you consider thats RWHP and triumph states HP at the crank which would put thier quoted 15 at about 12 at the most. So 18 is still not likely right. Especially now that it's been said there is no increase in compression ratio with the BB. That would mean the cams are delivering almost the entire 18 HP, which would be unlikely even if they were full race cams let alone EPA compliant ones. So i still think something isn't right there. It should also be more than 67 stock w/pipes. I believe it's been said 70 HP 100% stock and pipes add about 2.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 09 May 2010 - 05:55 |
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| | | Keets | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 24/02/2009 | | Posts | : | 453 | | Location | : | Australia |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 07:35 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: daz) | | | I've seen plenty "happy" dyno sheets being involved in what you guys would call "tuner" or "Import" cars...I've seen a 70 AWHP increase on a Japanese dyno from an Australian car that made an honest 650AWHP dynoed in Australia. I can only report on what I observed Daz, I do know that the runs were on the same dyno and operated by the same guy. The work was performed by a shop not related to the dyno tuner, that tells me that while the numbers could be rubbery the percentage change would have been consistent.
Until I have my bike dynoed by someone I trust, come on PC5!, I'm not going to stake a farm on the numbers.
As for the contribution of cams versus displacement. I think that the while the 100c does contribute by adding 6.25 percent more swept volume I think the overall increase in performance is mainly derived through unshrouding the valves as well producing a better flame front thanks to increase in bore width. As for the cams, from talking to someone who has installed a number of these kits the difference in the cams appears to be more in the duration, that tells me that the valves are on the small side. So it makes sense to me that the cams really help the numbers. I would definitely like to see something like a 255 in a 96ci HD. In short there is more to the cam/displacement deal than meets the eye, the components produce a result greater than the sum of the parts. I think in time we will see some good gains over the BB kit
The more I look at it the more I believe that the1600 started out as a 1700 and for reason only known to Triumph they decided to go with the smaller combo. Maybe to future proof, maybe to give dealers some more workshop time or maybe to get the bike past the Euro tree huggers.
| Cruisin' on thru the junction i'm flyin' 'bout the speed of sound
Noticin' peculiar function i ain't no roller coaster show me down.
I turned away to see her woa! she caught my eye
But i was rollin' down movin' too fast;
...Doh!
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| | | Truss | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 17/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 146 | | Location | : | Canada |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 18:25 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | | Here's a wacky thought..........and feel free to lambaste and ridicule me because I'm no mechanic. If we 1600 owners loaded the BB tune which is apparently richer, then took off the seat baffles.....could this then come close to a decent yet safe and more powerful tune? I realize that a specific tune would be more accurate but could this get us in the ballpark?
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 18:28 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | | Keets wrote:
The more I look at it the more I believe that the1600 started out as a 1700 and for reason only known to Triumph they decided to go with the smaller combo.
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I agree, and i've thought this from the beginning. I believe they did it for the aftermarket and dealer labor money because lets face it, they could have made it a 1700 with zero extra cost on thier part. I feel they also held back on the show quality of many parts in order to sell a ton of chrome. I think basically they wanted to compete with HD and they felt they could build a better bike at much lower cost, but NOT if they equaled HD's cosmetic perfection. To do that i think they would be in the same price range as HD. So they build it w/o that and offer it aftermarket to those who must have it. makes the bike look like a real bargain compared to HD untill you try and match thier cosmetic level with the $1400 wheels, $450 pulley, $350 fork legs, $200 switch housings, $140 mirrors, et etc.
That said, it still beats the hell out of HD in ever way shape and form !
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 09 May 2010 - 18:39 |
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| | | Stockwell | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 27/11/2009 | | Posts | : | 74 | | Location | : | Austria |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 20:29 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: daz) | | |
daz wrote:
but NOT if they equaled HD's cosmetic perfection. |
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Funny that you mention that. Maybe I haven't seen enough HDs lately (the local HD dealer is much closer to me than my Triumph dealer is), but the ones I have seen look kinda cheap and plasticy to me - whereas the Tbird (even completely stock) does not. And most of the official HD press photos hardly ever show the left side of the bike. I wonder why. 
On a somewhat more closely on-topic related note:
I recently removed the plastic wind channels (no idea if there is a proper word for it) under the seat and had my dealer load the TOR tune. Now, my bike is still 1600cc with the stock pipes, it now has the performance air filter installed and the cat is still in place. I have noticed some increase in performance which I attribute to the fact that the engine gets more air now and the TOR tune makes a somewhat richer fuel mix. Do you guys think it's enough to keep the engine from running too lean? Or will a special tune in the future make it even better?
Thanks in advance for any thoughts and comments. :)
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| | | Thatch | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 24/06/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,655 | | Location | : | Savannah, GA, United States |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 21:34 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: daz) | | | I think Triumph had the 1600 planned all along. However they did it with the upgrade in mind as well. I think Triumph went after the Harley market in more ways than just building a cruiser, but in mimicking many elements of the business model as well. They saw the long revenue life of HD owners and wanted to create a similar customer base for themselves. The street triple is a great bike, but care to guess how much money Triumph makes on the typical S3 owner after the sale? Not much I'm guessing. The basic bike with hundreds of options is a revenue farm for Triumph.
Now, that approach could be a bad one if they delivered an inferior product and the only way to make it passable was with copious bolt-ons, but they didn't do that. The stock bird is a great bike and well worth the money they ask for it. I suspect that they don't actually make much on the bird, considering it's fit and finish and capabilities. I think the revenue model on the bird is a much more long term plan, that the profit is to be made on the bike through not just the initial purchase, but in the follow on accessory business as well. A stock Harley doesn't come any better equipped than a stock bird. (they just have all the options ready to roll when the bike goes on sale and you'll stll pay more for the stock bike)
just my 2 cents.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 09 May 2010 - 22:10 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Stockwell) | | | Well, granted there are harleys that are like that like the budget sporties. But not most. I think you're right in that you haven't seen enough of them lately. Go to a HD dealer and check them out if you get a chance. Don't get me wrong, i love the tbird and i'm certainly no HD lover, but some of those bikes are like jewels. The chrome is better quality to begin with. Triumph chrome has never been particularly good, and the Tbird is no exception. They also pay exceptional attention to the tiniest of details and leave nothing looking unfinished. For example, they might go as far as to chrome the axl nut and little things like that. IMO this is what makes them so expensive. if you look at thier hi end stuff it's insanely jewel like. I've seen a few screming eagles that looked like 50k show bikes.
The Tbird for me is by far the superior machine, but in that one respect i believe HD easily takes the blue ribbon. I can look at my chrome Tbird left side clutch cover and in a certain light it looks cloudy. You won't find chrome like that on a HD except maybe the cheaper sporties at 1/2 the cost of a Tbird.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | Keets | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 24/02/2009 | | Posts | : | 453 | | Location | : | Australia |
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| | Posted : 10 May 2010 - 01:49 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: daz) | | | Theres no doubt in my mind that Triumph are emulating the HD revenue model...I have the closet full of Triumph T-shirts to prove it. I'm sure they are making decent dollar on the 'Bird, R&D notwithstanding. I think I spend close to 5K on extras including the chrome fork sliders before I took delivery. I'm updating the controls to chrome at the moment and that is around AU$750 without bars and my spanky Rizoma grips.
Harelys do have nice chrome and I agree they are well thought out for most. The never ending range of extras available is testiment to the subtle changes they make year to year and the units they move. I doubt we will ever get that kind of support...in fact I'm impressed Progressive, TB and Dynojet are getting on board so early.
I'm interested to see if this seat mod works out and now we have the remove the rubber ring around the filter housing mod. It's all conjecture until we can get a tunable ECU or piggy back and back to back test these mods on the dyno.
Righty now I'm prepared to say that the 1/4 mile dyno says that the cat removal with the shorties and the BB tune delivers some improvement. I wont be fiddeling with this thing anymore until I get the PC5. Hopefully Corbin will have a low solo seat by then. My plan will be to try the K&N against the green filter and try the seat mod if the seat is available. Having said that the worth of the seat mod may not be seen on the dyno, it's affectiveness or lack there of may only be seen on the road with the aero of the bike dictating the result
Anyhow, It's still not 100% but it's closer optimal than it was.
| Cruisin' on thru the junction i'm flyin' 'bout the speed of sound
Noticin' peculiar function i ain't no roller coaster show me down.
I turned away to see her woa! she caught my eye
But i was rollin' down movin' too fast;
...Doh!
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 10 May 2010 - 02:27 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | | Keets, theres something you may want to know about the chrome switch housings you are getting installed. Make sure you also order the chrome clamp for the right side because the kit doesn't come with it. This is the 1/2 circle that clamps the brake res onto the bars and the clutch lever housing too. It comes with one for the clutch side, but the one on the brake side is considered part of the brake res so they don't give you that and you then have to use the original black one. Then again, if you don't also get the chrome brake res cover then maybe it won't matter to you,. But i strongly suggest you do, as it looks much better and more complete that way. heres the part.....
Part# A9738157 24.99 (USD) Switchcube Clamp - Chrome
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | Keets | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 24/02/2009 | | Posts | : | 453 | | Location | : | Australia |
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| | Posted : 10 May 2010 - 03:01 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: daz) | | | Cheers for that Daz
Yeah I noticed the clamp was a seperate purchase for some reason, I've ordered the cover for the brake res not the cap. One thing they dont supply are chrome or stainless fittings. You'd think for the coin they ask that they woould throw in a few bols. I'm ripping mine out soon and get the equivilent in stainless. I'm also ordering the little headlight fairng deal, it comes with a new h/light bucket that has 4 mounts for the fairing. I will install an inch spacer as I dont like the way it hides the chrome upper yoke I bought. The fairing will hide the GPS.
Speaking of which I found a groovy mount on a site PC recommend for the LCD screen. I'll mount my Garmin with this one...extree plate required for the 660
Link
| Cruisin' on thru the junction i'm flyin' 'bout the speed of sound
Noticin' peculiar function i ain't no roller coaster show me down.
I turned away to see her woa! she caught my eye
But i was rollin' down movin' too fast;
...Doh!
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 10 May 2010 - 03:09 Post title : Re: Shorty TORs + Crossover + BB Tune (Re: Keets) | | | Yeah, thats what i got....the cover that covers the entire res, not the chrome res cap. But i think since that cover is not part of the chroem switch housing kit, thats why you have to buy the one clamp seperately....because if you leave the res black then you don't want a chrome clamp, as it won't match the res housing. So therefore they sell it sepeately. What they SHOUL have done is sell the res cover and the clamp as a package since they go together.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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