|  | Topic : AUTO TUNE |  |
| | | edbob | | Chaac |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 04/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 931 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 04:33 Post title : AUTO TUNE | | | Been doing a lot of research and am seriously considering taking things in this direction - Power Commander-V with the Auto Tune Module, that is. Any advice on installation or pitfalls? Eg. - I noticed there is no PC-V map for the 1700, but I'm assuming the wide band sensor of the auto-tune will accommodate for this over the TORS tune... -Does the sensor stay in permantly, or do you remove it after it's done it's programming? I suppose I'll find out soon, but just wondering if anyone has had problems or can lend some advice - thanks in advance - Ed.
| "You will ride eternal shiny and chrome"
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| | | daz | | Zeus | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 06:20 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: edbob) | | | First of all, the problem i have with it is that the sensor it uses needs a new bung welded into the header. The stock bung will not accept it. Mickey told me $100 to weld the bungs on, but i didn't want that done because you know it's going to ruin the pipe at that point cosmetically. Also, i talked to mickey about this and questioned him relentlessly and it comes down to this....if the bike is dyno tuned, auto tune will only matter as the bike's enviornment changes. In other words, when you dyno the bike, it's optimal at the altitude where the dyno is, at the temp that day, etc. So autotune will compensate for that but the bike will run just as well without it most of the time. AT will simply keep it there even when conditions change. But unless you're talking major changes I'd wager the difference will be small. I don't think it's worth it. If the stock bungs could be used, maybe. But after playing with tunes and doing some tweaks i think you can get great results by using logic and being careful. If you want to go with a PC i would say just have it dyno'd or use someone else s map with your setup if there is one. As i have said several times recently, mine is like at least 2 people's setup that posted tunes here with the exception that my seat duct is removed for better intake, so i just added 3% more fuel and the bike ran fantastic after that. But in any case there are a number of ways to go about it, but IMO autotune isn't the way to go for me at least.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 15:44 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: daz) | | | I agree. From what I've read, there is no way for a wideband sensor in closed loop, to keep up. I looked at PCV, as it was coming out and the Dobrek junk, daz obtained, and all the stuff besides that, out there. The problem is A/F tuning from exhaust gas and using that to keep the injectors open a bit longer for a more rich squirt. No way the loop can stay closed. What happened on the last squirt is given a rough measure for the next squirt of fuel.
But, remember, this bike calculates not only the fuel demand for the next cylinder to fire, it controls the spark advance and so calculates how long the coil has to charge for the next firing and get that started, also. It does this all in advance, instead of arrears. It is looking at the advance sensors.
Road speed, TP, crank angle, water temp, outside environment, MAP. It makes a very close guess from the current sensor, not from what just happened in the exhaust. Like a chop axe, when a scalpel is needed.
For this bike, the "after fact" info of the O2 in the exhaust gas is not useful. The ECU has other, forward plans and can do more than just increase the duty cycle of the injectors.
Another issue is the fidelity or fineness of grain for these adjustments. The Dobrek had only 3 power bands it tried to manipulate with the injectors.
Another issue is consumer confidence. You won't be able see what this unit does, will you? Can you read the map and see what changes it makes, if any?
| | Post edited by DizzE on 13 Dec 2012 - 15:46 |
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| | | edbob | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 04/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 931 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 17:45 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: edbob) | | | The appeal for me is I don't have access to a triumph tuner with a dyno. I'm not thrilled about welding on a 'bung hole', but can only find harley and rice-rocket tuners around these parts. Anyhow, I have a "modified" airbox (snipped off the top and jammed KN filter into end of snorkel). I suspect I could use a little more fuel sometimes, so I'm going to try what Daz did first. I ride rain/shine, freezing/hot, etc. Would just be nice to know I have the most ideal tune. I believe the tuning is 'learned', by the way. It's done on the fly, for sure, but it records the data and then reapplies it for the next time you're at the same exact throttle position/barometer/temp/etc.
| "You will ride eternal shiny and chrome"
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 18:25 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: edbob) | | | Ok, then you can try a few things. I posted the dizze decat tune that i added 3% fuel to in the repository. You can try that if your setup is close to mine, IE: pipes, free flow filter, cat bypass, and less intake restriction. I asked elsewhere about how much fuel to add and was told maybe start at about 5%, but i felt that might be a bit much considering it wasn't a huge intake mod like pods or such and therefore tried 3% with great results. So i left it there and don't think it's lean at all. second, you can try the map i made from the tors tune and the fuel tables from tarkmalbot's power commander tune for his 1700/decat/tors. I took the tables and added them to the regular 20310 tors map, turned off the sensors, set the FL switch to zero, and again added 35 fuel because both him amd Dizze had no intake modes aside from free flow filter. Tarkmalbot's seems to sound and feel a bit smoother and seems like the power is distributed more linearly across the range, and it feels quicker. But thats all initial impressions and i haven't had enough miles due to weather to truly say which is better. But i am liking the TM map a lot right now. I didn't post that one but if you want to try it PM me and i'll send it. But remember, any of this is at your own risk. Just because i'm using them doesn't mean i'm not damaging my bike as i ride. I wouldn't be doing this is i thought i was, but i'm only relying on my own logic and i could be wrong. I did however run the dizze tune for quite a few miles like that. And logic tells me that those bikes were setup just like mine but w/o the intake change, so it should be fine even w/o adding fuel because many people have run fir a long time now with the seat hack mod and never even fueled for it. Si i believe it's fine, but i had to gicve you that disclaimer. Your call. for me both maps work great and the bike has considerably more power.
As to adding fuel and how i determined how much to add, if you look at Dizze's 2 tunes, one decat one with cat, and the stock tors tune, you will see that in all 3 maps there have certain cells that are the exact same numbers in all 3 maps. They apparently weren't changed because they are low throttle or idle whatever. then the cells that ARE different in all 3 maps are the ones i added fuel to to compensate for my slightly freer intake. That 3% made a big difference in power, so it was obviously needed with the extra intake. I assume that not only because it then ran much stronger, but because thos tunes were made by pro tuners and i'm sure the last thing they'd do was tune them overly lean. So i have to assume removal of the seat duct frees up the intake enough to justify more fuel.
Now, all that said, i'm not sure what you meant about your air mod. If all you did was add a filter and remove the seal, just use the dizze dcat tune. But if you did more than that then you'll wanna try what i said above. can you describe exactly what you did? i just couldn't understand what you meant.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | edbob | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 04/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 931 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 18:41 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: daz) | | | Link
Thanks Daz, for the details. When I open up tune ecu, if I have further questions, I may give you a shout. I know, the airbox hack is ugly and amateurish, but I had just put on a low slung Corbin and the sucking sound was noticeable.
I"m also running catless with BC Predators.
| "You will ride eternal shiny and chrome"
| | Post edited by edbob on 13 Dec 2012 - 18:46 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 18:55 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: edbob) | | | I see. PM sent in response to yours.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | edbob | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 04/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 931 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 20:07 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: edbob) | | | Unfortunately it's hard to tell from the pics, but the removal extends quite far down the sides in a couple of spots, and all the way down the front of the box. I only left behind where other things were attached. I would say there is minimal restriction. I decided about a month after these pictures to finally go catless.
| "You will ride eternal shiny and chrome"
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 13 Dec 2012 - 20:48 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: edbob) | | | I see. then maybe the maps i added fuel to could go even higher for yours because that would seem to be a lot less restrictive than mine. But with a change that radical my solution may be to simple. I'll leave that up to you. If you know how to use tuneecu and add fuel it's easy to do yourself. But as i said i'll send you that map. In fact, i'll send you both.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 14 Dec 2012 - 15:39 Post title : Re: AUTO TUNE (Re: daz) | | |
Ya gotta think about spark advance as much, if not more than fuel. It is a complicated puzzle and not so easy as to just add fuel to get best power.
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