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| Coops | | Set |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 05/02/2012 | | Posts | : | 24 | | Location | : | Cairns, Nth QLD, Australia |
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| | Posted : 08 Nov 2012 - 06:03 Post title : STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES | | | Ok It may have been done to death on the 1600's but what about the 1700 Storm?
I can not see if anyone has simply kept the standard pipes and removed the Cat'.
Simply,
/ Is there a requirement to retune and if so best tune?
/ What note and how loud compared to the TORS or other after market pipes?
/ Can you correct the "popping" on hill decent (decel)?
/ Is there any benefit to adding the rear balance pipe after Cat' Removal?
Coops
Storm 1700
Bonneville Black
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| daz | | Zeus | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 08 Nov 2012 - 06:50 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Coops) | | | Is there a requirement to retune and if so best tune?
Yes, use the TORs tune because w/o the cat you have probably unrestricted the exhaust system about as much as tors WITH cat do.
What note and how loud compared to the TORS or other after market pipes?
I have heard at least one person say it sounds better than tors w/cat and similar in volume
Can you correct the "popping" on hill decent (decel)?
Popping varies from bike to bike but you will find it's always there to some degree. My findings have been that the 1700 w/tors and cat had the least. But with stock pipes and cat gone i dunno. I'd say probably better because the stock pipes really cover up the popping.
Is there any benefit to adding the rear balance pipe after Cat' Removal?
I don't think so, and no one seems to have noted any benefit. Theres already a Xover at the header.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| Coops | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 05/02/2012 | | Posts | : | 24 | | Location | : | Cairns, Nth QLD, Australia |
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| | Posted : 15 Nov 2012 - 21:50 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: daz) | | | Thanks Daz,
I met a Storm owner recently who removed the Cat' and compared his short TORS and standard silencers with cat removed, (both without adding a different Tune).
He noted the difference was minimal and if he had not already purchased the TORS, probably would not have given minimal noise level.
He has popping on decel however the trade off with regards to a few extra DB's and the note was very adequate he was very very happy.
however, I am almost convinced that in order to maintain optimal timing and best fuel efficiency, one of the after market power commanders should be installed, having said that they do seem to run ok without. (I feel the engine is quite forgiving in this area).
Concur on the rear Xover. Interestingly that Staintune install one with their system and recommend the short TORS tune.
Since nothing in Nth Qld happens in a hurry, eventually I am going to try the Straight through with standard pipes and see how it goes.
I will I will post it all on the net for all to compare ridicule judge or assess.
Take it easy mate,
Coops
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| tadpole | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 18/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 307 | | Location | : | Mandurah, West Australia, Australia |
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| | Posted : 15 Nov 2012 - 22:14 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Coops) | | | Hi Coops....I,m running 1700 with cat removed and replaced with staintune crossover pipe and standard mufflers.
Bike has got the airbox mods and running K@N filter and running triumph tune nr 20310 runs really well, sounds lots better but not loud enough to attract unwanted attention from the law..Some popping on decel from higher speeds but I like it. Bike has now done 15,000 kms set up like this and has just been across aust and back averaging 17.5 kms per litre which included savage headwinds nearly all the way from wa to bathurst plus some on the way back home....Not going to play with the mapping as i,m happy with the power etc, cheers, Tadpole
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| Dougl | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 13/07/2012 | | Posts | : | 544 | | Location | : | Reno, Nevada, United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 00:23 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Coops) | | | I was wondering if the Staintune crossover will fit other mufflers like the Triumph TORs. As to the need for the rear crossover, why would anyone, especially a company like Staintune even make one? They must think there's some advantage to balancing the flow closer to the exhaust.
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| daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 01:01 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Dougl) | | | Maybe because they figure since the cat itself acted like a crossover they just wanted to preserve that since the bike was designed like that. Secondly i think they also may have seen it as a way to use the cat mounting to make the whole system more rigid and secure.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| peteronkarra | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 01/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 830 | | Location | : | Karragarra Island, Queensland, Australia |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 01:10 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Coops) | | | Coops
If you want to make up the elbows here are the measurements that worked for me.
Link
Cheers
| I sometimes wonder what I"ll do when I grow up.... but not very often 
| | Post edited by peteronkarra on 16 Nov 2012 - 01:10 |
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| cnas122 | | Set | | | Reg. Date | : | 17/10/2012 | | Posts | : | 85 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 02:05 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: peteronkarra) | | | Has anyone ever dyno'd same mike with straight tubes and with crossover for a comparison (but using the same silencers and MAP)? Seems like that would answer a bunch of questions.....
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| Dougl | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 13/07/2012 | | Posts | : | 544 | | Location | : | Reno, Nevada, United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 17:14 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: cnas122) | | | Note that there's no rear crossover with the BC Hog Slayers. I contacted Staintune and asked them why they use the rear H crossover. This is what they said:
"Our H piece collector replaces the stock cat box. On a twin cylinder engine having the exhaust gases properly balanced make a difference to performance. This is why Triumph put a crossover at the front as well as the cat box. If you removed the cat box and replaced it with 2 straight through pipes you would probably suffer a measurable performance loss. This is why we include the crossover as part of the set."
Staintune didn't need to go through the trouble to design and fabricate an H crossover. On the other hand, BC didn't bother to design and sell one for their system.
As far as what's right, I would want to see DATA, not opinions, about performance. I have another letter in to Staintune. They responded within one day. I also asked whether their H collector would fit with TORs.
| | Post edited by Dougl on 16 Nov 2012 - 17:24 |
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| daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 17:22 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Dougl) | | | I would like to see that too because if it were correct i'd get a crossover. But i really can't see that making much if any difference, especially considering there is noting but straight thru pipe all the way to the end. I could maybe see it if using the stock pipes, but even then i doubt it would make much difference if any. But again, I'd like proof. Even if someone here tried it both ways and thier butt dyno noticed a considerable difference, i'd be willing to accept that and try it. (at least if it were a member i respected)
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| Dougl | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 13/07/2012 | | Posts | : | 544 | | Location | : | Reno, Nevada, United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 17:26 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: daz) | | | Question for Daz. I don't understand how you made your connectors. You talk about 90 and 45 degrees. Do you have a link to a picture of the final connectors?
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| Dougl | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 13/07/2012 | | Posts | : | 544 | | Location | : | Reno, Nevada, United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 18:12 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: daz) | | |
daz wrote:
I would like to see that too because if it were correct i'd get a crossover. But i really can't see that making much if any difference, especially considering there is noting but straight thru pipe all the way to the end. I could maybe see it if using the stock pipes, but even then i doubt it would make much difference if any. But again, I'd like proof. Even if someone here tried it both ways and thier butt dyno noticed a considerable difference, i'd be willing to accept that and try it. (at least if it were a member i respected) |
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It's not necessarily just max power or even its range. I want the power curve to be smooth.
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| daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 18:28 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Dougl) | | | It is ! In fact, throughout all the different setups i've run it's never NOT been. Well, except when i fist got the bike and ran tors before i got the tune loaded. It's smooth and wide and beautiful right now as is, and far stronger than it's ever been. Does suck fuel tho. But i have come to live by the mantra, "fun costs money". What the hell....i don't ride the friggin thing for transportation.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 16 Nov 2012 - 18:30 |
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| daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 18:32 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Dougl) | | | Dougl wrote:
Question for Daz. I don't understand how you made your connectors. You talk about 90 and 45 degrees. Do you have a link to a picture of the final connectors? |
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There should be pics here but i don't recall who posted them or where. But it's simple. At any hardware store you will find a 90 degree 1.25" diameter galvanized elbow. You cut it into 2 pieces and each piece is then 45 degrees, the correct angle for the header to muffler connection. The 1.25" works just right, as tho the outside diameter of the cat pipe that goes into the header and muffler are 1.5", the 1.25" elbow is actually 1.5" OD. The inside diameter is 1.25". Try it, but if you do then theres no reason not to try my altered tune. try the dizze decat tune first then try mine. Unless theres some reason my bike benefitted so much by adding fuel, i think you will agree theres a considerable difference. To me it feels huge but i'll just say considerable to err on the safe side of criticism.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 16 Nov 2012 - 18:32 |
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| Dougl | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 13/07/2012 | | Posts | : | 544 | | Location | : | Reno, Nevada, United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 18:50 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: daz) | | |
daz wrote:
Dougl wrote:
Question for Daz. I don't understand how you made your connectors. You talk about 90 and 45 degrees. Do you have a link to a picture of the final connectors? |
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There should be pics here but i don't recall who posted them or where. But it's simple. At any hardware store you will find a 90 degree 1.25" diameter galvanized elbow. You cut it into 2 pieces and each piece is then 45 degrees, the correct angle for the header to muffler connection. The 1.25" works just right, as tho the outside diameter of the cat pipe that goes into the header and muffler are 1.5", the 1.25" elbow is actually 1.5" OD. The inside diameter is 1.25". Try it, but if you do then theres no reason not to try my altered tune. try the dizze decat tune first then try mine. Unless theres some reason my bike benefitted so much by adding fuel, i think you will agree theres a considerable difference. To me it feels huge but i'll just say considerable to err on the safe side of criticism. |
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I finally get it, thanks! My plan is to talk to my dealer about this. First I want to know if anyone with a T-Bird here has done any mods, tuned with a PCV and what the gains were. My dealer is a major HD performance tuner but only does Dynojet. No TuneECU or Tuneboy. If he thinks it would be worth it in terms of gains, he'll recommend crossover or straight connector. I really like my short TORs but I'm not sure if they're going to give the most potential power. The BC Hogs look like crap - can't deal with the ends. The Staintunes look nice but I'd have to be convinced they would do better than the TORs. Forans also look nice but before investing in all this, I need to see DATA.
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| daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 19:44 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Dougl) | | | I too was interested in a PC. But while there are several people that have implemented them and had the bike tuned, none were really able to give me any real idea whether it would be worth it compared to what I have now or even before i decatted. Mainly because they either did other mods like polishing the ports or custom cams at the same time or had them before. I have yet to see anyone who simply added a PC and had it tuned with either my current setup or before i decatted. And the gains i got after removing the seat duct and adding fuel were the biggest gains i've ever felt from any mod on any bike aside from the BB, which as i've said i don't believe was more than this. So i find it unlikely a PC is going to be an advantage over what i'm running now and paid $6 and a bit of tweaking for. But i'd pop for the PC and tune and/or crossover in a nanosecond if I saw gains w/o too much more fuel. And I really don't think this bike is capable of NOT running smooth with a nice wide linear powerband unless it's tuned by an idiot or serious internal mods are done for big time power. I think It's just the nature of this engine that it's like that.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| zolti | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 23/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,127 | | Location | : | newcastle , United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 19:58 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: peteronkarra) | | |
peteronkarra wrote:
Coops
If you want to make up the elbows here are the measurements that worked for me.
Link
Cheers |
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try
38mm - 1.5" OD 45 Degree Stainless Steel Exhaust Polished Pipe Tube Bend on ebay
"mr silicone" sold some for about ??8 each but at the minute they are ??1008 each!!, i suspect an error lol
Link
there have been members on here that have bought them and fitted well
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| Dougl | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 13/07/2012 | | Posts | : | 544 | | Location | : | Reno, Nevada, United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 20:07 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: daz) | | | I don't think tuning with a PC would give you much if any more power with stock TORs or even with getting rid of the Cat, especially if you have a custom tune from Dizze for that setup. The only advantage is that you would have something specific to your bike. The thing with Dizze's map is that it is all in the F tables. This is basically what a PC trim map does - it essentially ignores tuning imposed by the L tables and O2 sensor.
My thought about the PC was related more to the BC Hogs which sound pretty good but look like crap. I don't think you can extrapolate from any TOR map to an uncharacterized muffler like the Hogs. I can't understand how people can go out and buy aftermarket mufflers with no plan on how they're going to tune them. Plunk down $600-$1000 and hope for the best?
When I had my Rocket, I used a custom tune from Wayne at Tuneboy done on a bike with TORs/cat bypass, same as my bike. The difference in peak HP between that custom tune and the Triumph tune for that exhaust was 2 hp. The peak torque difference was much larger but only because the Triumph tune decreased power by closing the secondaries, which you can open in Tuneboy. There are no secondaries in the T-Bird so this isn't an issue. Wayne also had a custom tune for the same exhaust but with triple K&N's on the throttle bodies. I put the triple filters on and used that tune but I thought it ran like crap.
So, it's unlikely that I would do the PCV thing unless my dealer can convince me otherwise based on what if anything he has done with other T-Birds.
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| tadpole | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 18/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 307 | | Location | : | Mandurah, West Australia, Australia |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 21:26 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: Dougl) | | | Hi Guys, I tried using two 45 degree pipes to link where the cat used to be.....sounded very much louder, bike not as responsive down low but seemed better right up top...not really practical, I the fitted a mini baffle 4 icnes long into each pipe, sounded better but still loud and performance no noticiable difference with or without baffles....I then fitted the mini baffles into the staintune crossover pipe and the sound was much better and the bikes performance was much the same as stock..no noticiable difference. I blocked off the sai pipe and have minimal popping on the overun from higher speeds, no problem for me, Dealer and I tried various tunes and 20310 was by far the best, I did this when the bike was 1600 and left it as is when I fitted the big bore kit and the bike then sounded slightly deeper in tone so i,m not playing with it anymore...cheers, Tadpole
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| hoonish | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 29/04/2012 | | Posts | : | 87 | | Location | : | New Zealand |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 22:32 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: tadpole) | | | I have a decat setup with crossover and short tors and are running dizze's cat less tune on my storm. the standard tors tune worked well with the cat on but after decatting the bike made more noise, popped like crazy and performed no better. after installing catless tune and doing the 12 min adaptation procedure the performance was noticeably improved and popping is so minimal it isn't an issue. The bike is fast enough for me and runs better than it ever has but possibly could be better yet, I don't know
With regard to the tuneecu versus pcv discussion I think the advantage of the pc is that you could cruise into any dyno shop with the tors tune installed as a base, throw the bike on the dyno and the pc can be adjusted to get the best result - whether the tuner is tuneecu literate or a harley lover or not.
As with any fuel injected vehicle always do your intake and exhaust mods first then tune it (not the other way around). It's logical then that if you then change the intake or exhaust or whatever you will have to retune to get the best performance
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| Dougl | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 13/07/2012 | | Posts | : | 544 | | Location | : | Reno, Nevada, United States |
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| | Posted : 16 Nov 2012 - 23:13 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: hoonish) | | | Whatever hardware changes you plan, you should also have a viable plan for tuning. As far as I know, there is still not a tuner in my town (Reno) who does tuning with Tuneboy or TuneECU. With the Rocket Keihin ECUs, you couldn't remap in real time (as you do with a power commander) because the maps were in flash memory and the bike had to be turned off to download new values into the trim table. This may have changed with Tuneboy but I haven't kept up with it. If not, then tuning with these programs is cumbersome, extra time consuming, and a total pain in the ass.
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| Coops | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 05/02/2012 | | Posts | : | 24 | | Location | : | Cairns, Nth QLD, Australia |
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| | Posted : 20 Nov 2012 - 10:01 Post title : Re: STORM 1700 - DECAT - STANDARD PIPES (Re: tadpole) | | | Tadpole,
Thanks mate.
Over the next week, with local Exhaust shop help, I am removing the Cat' and installing the crossover pipe then I will service the Bike and have it tuned.
I am still interested in installing a cobra powerPro later on, to optimise performsnce.
I will of course try and record the before and after for all to see.
Coops
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