|  | Topic : Under seat air duct mod |  |
| | | dragline708 | | Set |  | | Reg. Date | : | 05/05/2010 | | Posts | : | 36 | | Location | : | brandon, Florida, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 12:32 Post title : Under seat air duct mod | | | Hi Folks
I stop in site , and usually browse forums ,
to see what you guys have been up to .
I am retired mechanic , own a Rocket III @ present
always been a Triumph fan , since it was first bike I
every owned ( 59 trumpet ) way back in 1963 )
Get to the meat of the topic now
Friend owns a 1600 .
So far mods we've done are
cat bypass pipe ( ( electrical conduit 90 elbow ) got idea from here 
unseat baffle air duct removal & rubber gasket ( got idea from here ) ( did this mod yesterday )
Triumph performance air filter
1700 tune put in ( 1600 )
Homemade sissy bar & back pad
Link
After did under seat air duct mod , and 12 min tune.
Friend test rode bike maybe 75 miles.
Called me with seat of pants , test report
Said in his opinion performance increase was about
80 % of cat bypass pipe removal a loan
That's a pretty good increase
Only draw back he complained about
Now he has a big Hickey mark on inside of his thigh
from air getting sucked in from all around seat 
Not sure who innovated unseat air duct removal ( with pictures )
Thanks it was a good one 
Wayne
| | Post edited by dragline708 on 17 Jan 2011 - 12:32 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 16:18 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: dragline708) | | | I've done this too. But i think the seal around the filter mouth is the real restriction. That seal off the filter mouth so it can only pull air thru the seat duct. I believe removing that seal will yield about the same result. The reason i say this is i feel very little if any difference after removing the duct, and i think the reason why is then when brand new the seal on mine was already 1/2 pulled off and i then removed it completely.It could have helped but at the time the bike was new and i wouldn't have noticed subtle differences because i wasn't used to it yet. Then a year and 1/2 later i removed the duct and wasn't sure if i noticed anything which leads me to believe it may not help much because with the seal removed it was already getting more air.
That said, yesterday i changed out the break in oil after hitting 600 miles post BB kit install and put in synthetic then removed the duct again (had put it back on to see if i felt a loss of power) and did the 12 minute tune. The bike is running real strong, but i don't know if thats the oil or the duct or the 12MT or a combination of them. But one thing i do know is that whether or not it's because my seal was already long gone B4 i removed the duct, the duct definitely didn't contribute enough to say for sure that anything i may have felt wasn't placebo effect. I'm thinking maybe the inner snorkel (which i have pulled before) and widening the filter mouth and then doing the 12MT might be a better way to get more air in there. The filter mouth especially, because as small as it is i bet thats the bottleneck.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 16:37 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: daz) | | | daz wrote:
thats the bottleneck. |
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There by design for TQ. Take the doo-dad off all together if you want to trade TQ for HP.
| | Post edited by DizzE on 17 Jan 2011 - 17:39 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 17:22 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: DizzE) | | | Yeah, but the same was said about the speedmaster and i gained a lot of both by opening it up. I think theory is not always exactly as accurate as is said. Or there are other things to consider such as it maybe be there for that reason alright, but with the tors it may be different.....or with the seat duct off....or with the BB and tors....or etc etc etc. There are any number of reasons that it may not hold true unless you're talking about a bone stock 1600. Right now w/o the seat duct and adaption i did, the thing has more torque than ever. So who knows. The only reason i haven't tried it yet is it will cost me $40 to try. (new filter top) But i likely will if and when i start jonsing for more. Right now it's got so much power i don't use it all much. But then you know how it goes...
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 17:38 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: daz) | | | Was the Speedy designed to be a TQ monster? Did they have Computational Fluid Dynamic understood, even in Industry at that time?
IAC, not much data has been posted yet. Not much but opinions, yet.
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| | | dragline708 | | Set | | | Reg. Date | : | 05/05/2010 | | Posts | : | 36 | | Location | : | brandon, Florida, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 17:42 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: daz) | | | Daz ,
Could you post a picture what you did to snorkel & filter mouth opening
Daz " QUOTE )
I'm thinking maybe the inner snorkel (which i have pulled before) and widening the filter mouth and then doing the 12MT might be a better way to get more air in there. The filter mouth especially, because as small as it is i bet thats the bottleneck.
Thanks in advance
Wayne
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| | | FTL40 | | Jupiter | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 13/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 1,122 | | Location | : | massachusetts, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 17:43 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: DizzE) | | | all of the victories, and the rocket III all gain tq and hp by removing there airbox.
| 2010 tbird 1700 silver (fastest color) BC exhaust, BC airbox removal
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 17:49 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: dragline708) | | | I can't take a pic of the snorkel, as it's in the airbox. But it's simple enough to find....remove the filter and stick your hand inside. Towards the throttle bodies you will feel a rubber piece. You can pull it out. One warning however....it is glued in with a sort of rubber cement that will break free easily enough. But be aware of the obvious....if any tiny pieces are left there and come loose, they could get into the throttle bodies and clog up the works. as you can imagine that would be real bad news. As for the filter mouth i did nothing yet. Just considering widening it which can obviously be done looking at it. As for the seal i spoke of, just look at the mouth and you'll see it. It is a rubber bead maybe 1/2" in diameter if i recall correctly. It can just be pulled off.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | dragline708 | | Set | | | Reg. Date | : | 05/05/2010 | | Posts | : | 36 | | Location | : | brandon, Florida, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 18:45 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: daz) | | | Daz
thanks for info
know about seal gasket , already been removed
But thought snorkel piece was the small down tube , that keeps air filter centered ,
that has battery hold down clip attached
Now I KNOW , ITS BEEN EXPLAINED
PS : Looking @ diagram ( parts )
your talking about air box mouth ( oval going to throttle bodies )
part # 12 clamp
IF there is a rubber part NOT LISTED that goes under part # 12 clamp
to seal air box oval mouth
THEN ( I might be wrong ! )
AS a retired mechanic
but wouldn't removing rubber seal under clamp make
and unfiltered air leak ??
That 's why I wanted a picture could figure out what
snorkel piece was being removed
" One warning however....it is glued in with a sort of rubber cement that will break free easily enough. But be aware of the obvious....if any tiny pieces are left there and come loose, they could get into the throttle bodies and clog up the works.
"
Link
Thanks again
Wayne
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| | | zolti | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 23/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,127 | | Location | : | newcastle , United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 18:46 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: daz) | | | dragline - use this link - it should get you to bb/airbox exploded view
Link
8 is the easy to peel off cold air seal which you have done,
no idea where the rubber snorkle is though, i presume its before the venturi
but if its glued it wont be spec'd as a seperate part, however if you havnt seen this view it might help 
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 18:46 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod | | | ...take off the inside velocity stack oval and leave a bare hole, leading to the rubber throttle body split off? Has anyone actually done that?
| | Post edited by DizzE on 17 Jan 2011 - 18:48 |
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| | | dragline708 | | Set | | | Reg. Date | : | 05/05/2010 | | Posts | : | 36 | | Location | : | brandon, Florida, United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 19:00 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: zolti) | | | Zolti ,
yes # 8 removal is a piece of cake no brainer
THE SNORKEL RUBBER being talked about may not be glued
it could be under clamp # 12 in diagram
Which IMO should not be removed
( unfiltered air leak going directly to throttle body
part # 11 th intake trumpet
Wish could get picture
Wayne
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| | | zolti | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 23/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,127 | | Location | : | newcastle , United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 19:27 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: dragline708) | | | maybe there are small conical filters that could replace 11 ( 1 per tb) and utilise clamp 13 as fixing
not been there yet so ive no idea of dimensions but its food for thought
anyone measured the intake diameters at that point and the depth of part 11?
hmmm wasnt dizze looking at fitting trumpets?
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 17 Jan 2011 - 20:00 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: dragline708) | | |
dragline708 wrote:
Which IMO should not be removed
( unfiltered air leak going directly to throttle body
Wayne |
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I don't think so. It shouldn't leave any holes for unfiltered air to get in. It's simply a sort of "splitter" that directs airflow. Likely to create a flow that is more streamlined and may or may not be beneficial. But the older 900 cruisers also had internal snorkels or whatever you wanna call this, and many took them out and said it improved things. But again, the only way to know is to try. I took mine out then put it back in because i wasn't sure i noticed anything. But i also didn't do a 12MT or any of that.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | Thatch | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 24/06/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,655 | | Location | : | Savannah, GA, United States |
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| | Posted : 18 Jan 2011 - 06:31 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: daz) | | | daz wrote:
It's simply a sort of "splitter" that directs airflow.
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Yup, it's not pictured in that diagram as it seems to be considered a part of #11. I can't recall for sure but I think the snorkel has a seat for it so it doesn't really change the ID of the snorkel but does create a 'splitter' of sorts dividing the air as it approaches the 'Y'. If I recall correctly though it splits the air longitudinally where as the 'Y' divides laterally so perhaps it is designed to introduce turbulence to the air flow.... I don't know. I'd be surprised if that was a choke point for the bike either way though.
I still think that the whole HP vs torque loss discussion is more complex than a simple conversion. On the stock bike opening up the intake can result in torque loss but with an opened up exhaust and greater displacement I think the bike would benefit from more intake, but yes it's all conjecture at this point, and probably always will be. The whole issue of intake and power is going to be different on a moving bike than it is on one strapped to a dyno. On top of that elevation and humidity in your area are going to make a difference as well, though the bike should compensate for some of that. This is going to continue to be a very individual process with some shared 'truths'.
Just my thoughts on the matter.
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 18 Jan 2011 - 14:07 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: zolti) | | | zolti wrote:
maybe there are small conical filters that could replace 11 ( 1 per tb) and utilise clamp 13 as fixing
not been there yet so ive no idea of dimensions but its food for thought
anyone measured the intake diameters at that point and the depth of part 11?
hmmm wasnt dizze looking at fitting trumpets? |
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That pesky frame member is in the way. I've looked at a lot of different things. I have found some
flat tops filters that will fit, I think.
But, I've also looked at the length/diameter of the TBs. That already seems TQ optimized.
So, you can:
Un-screw 3 binders on the rubber Trumpet itself. (I'm still not exactly sure which part is the snork.)
2 on the TBs and 1 you can get to just under the back of the tank, with the seat off.
You can then work the trumpet out by folding it, etc. to the forward and down.
Now you need a sleeve to hook the small pair of one inch high, flat top disk filters to the end of the
throttle bodies.
Cut the trumpet? Would make a dandy pair of well fitting sleeves? Better not. Use Duct Tape.
Now you can draw in filtered air, more heated, at about 300 cfm.
PROBLEM:
You still have to consider the sensors in the airbox. Did you ever notice the airbox seems to have
a false bottom? I think the ambient pressure and temp sensors are there. Maybe alright, as is.
Telling the ECU the air is a bit cooler than it receives is not a bad thing.
That leaves the MAP sensors. Seemed like too much work and not the direction for me.
| | Post edited by DizzE on 18 Jan 2011 - 14:07 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 18 Jan 2011 - 14:28 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: Thatch) | | | I think we need to consider that 1)- the airbox is not altered when the BB kit or are installed, and 2)-not all intake design aspect are likely strickly for performance, some may have to do with regs or even to make it optimal for the pitiful cams and other tuning aspects of the stock 1600. My point here is that we don't know which aspects are there for max power/torque. If the airbox were perfectly designed for the 1600, would it also be perfect for the 1700? I doubt it. The mapping, the cams, and if you have tors that too, are all likely to require some changes in the intake to make it optimal for the bike. So any of these restrictions could well improve things including the torque. Like i said before, on the speedmaster a lot of people including myself modded the airbox and got nothing but gains in torque and HP, which seems to corroborate what i'm saying. We can do math all day long but as with many things, the math doesn't always translate in the real world for any number of reasons. We aren't riding these bikes under controlled conditions and they aren't all the same. Mickey told me he's taken identical engines and modded them the same and seen large differences in power. 2 identical car engines he mentioned dyno'd 40 HP apart.
Thatch wrote:
daz wrote:
It's simply a sort of "splitter" that directs airflow.
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Yup, it's not pictured in that diagram as it seems to be considered a part of #11. I can't recall for sure but I think the snorkel has a seat for it so it doesn't really change the ID of the snorkel but does create a 'splitter' of sorts dividing the air as it approaches the 'Y'. If I recall correctly though it splits the air longitudinally where as the 'Y' divides laterally so perhaps it is designed to introduce turbulence to the air flow.... I don't know. I'd be surprised if that was a choke point for the bike either way though.
I still think that the whole HP vs torque loss discussion is more complex than a simple conversion. On the stock bike opening up the intake can result in torque loss but with an opened up exhaust and greater displacement I think the bike would benefit from more intake, but yes it's all conjecture at this point, and probably always will be. The whole issue of intake and power is going to be different on a moving bike than it is on one strapped to a dyno. On top of that elevation and humidity in your area are going to make a difference as well, though the bike should compensate for some of that. This is going to continue to be a very individual process with some shared 'truths'.
Just my thoughts on the matter. |
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| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | FTL40 | | Jupiter | | | | Reg. Date | : | 13/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 1,122 | | Location | : | massachusetts, United States |
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| | Posted : 19 Jan 2011 - 02:44 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: daz) | | | what we need is someone with the tools and the time to design some sort of airbox removal, unless one of our vendors would be willing to look into it. i would not be surprised if we could twist the arm of british customs to design a kit. as long as the kit comes with maps.
| 2010 tbird 1700 silver (fastest color) BC exhaust, BC airbox removal
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| | | Thatch | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 24/06/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,655 | | Location | : | Savannah, GA, United States |
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| | Posted : 19 Jan 2011 - 04:59 Post title : Re: Under seat air duct mod (Re: FTL40) | | | I've pinged Sean on that topic a number of times. He seems to hold no interest in the project. I don't know if that's because of the complexity or the perceived market for such a product. It certainly wouldn't hurt for anyone interested to drop BC a note asking about an airbox removal but I will be surprised if they come out with one.
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