|  | Topic : BB kit a go + belt info |  |
| | | Birdy68 | | Thor |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 16/07/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,352 | | Location | : | Bad Zurzach, Aargau, Switzerland |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 13:29 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: EnGage) | | |
EnGage wrote:
mag10 wrote:
.. by my estimate the belts in my application are seeing approximately 4 million miles per year of use. |
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that should be adequate 
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4 MILLION miles per year!!!
= 6'437'376 km!
If I average 5.5 liters / 100 km, then I would need:
= 354'055.68 liters of fuel per year! (93'531.62 US gallons)
And at the current price of 1.62 SFr / Liter, I would need:
= SFr 573'570.20 / year (595'297.04 US$)
| Birdy68
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Leave the pork pies for now - get the sausage rolls while they're hot!
 -x-  -x- 
more info at Fuelly.com
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| | | CornerBanger | | Jupiter | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 07/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 1,113 | | Location | : | Charleston, SC, United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 13:36 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: zolti) | | | For what it is worth, I had a Honda car with over 300,000 miles on it. Why is this pertinent? Well, the car had overhead cams turned by, guess what, a belt. The belt is of course dependent on sprockets to do their work. Now, the car had five timing belts changed in its life time and zero sprocket changes, why because the sprockets are made out of metal and the belt is made of softer material than the belt. This is a bit of a sarcastic post but this whole replace the sprocket idea has failed the common sense test.
Some things to think about:
1. The sprocket is metal.
2. The belt is not.
3. Combine 1 & 2 and the belt is the wear item by a huge margin.
4. Sprockets get replaced on bikes with chains, why, see number 5.
5. Chains are made of metal, thus they wear the sprockets they ride on because they are the same material.
6. Common sense would dictate that a manufacturer would not use a belt that was close to its maximum load limit (BB kit installation causing failure).
6a. Usually belts, chains, wire rope etc. have at least a 50 percent safety margin belt in, giving the ability to withstand shock loading.
7. HD has been using belts for years without negative results.
8. HD uses the V-Rod in drag racing with a belt, it seems to hold up to a 200+ HP motor dumping the clutch and power shifting.
9. On and on it goes.
Five things I do in life BEFORE I get wrapped around the axle in order of precedence, with examples provided from this thread.
1. DO NOT let emotion cloud your thinking. ==Oh my God 1500 bucks for a belt change every 15000 miles, what am I to do?
2. USE critical thinking. ==See the some things to think about in the above section
3. USE logical thought processes. ==See the some things to think about in the above section
4. Look at various points of view, do not get tunnel vision. ==One opinion, the dealer guy, could be wrong, really wrong.
5. Finally, apply the common sense test, DOES it make sense? ==A rubber belt wearing a metal sprocket out in 15000 miles when cars with timing belts can go hundreds of thousands of miles with the same sprocket set.
In short, this whole belt issue would have been a moot point if the above were followed. Changing sprockets every belt change, Bull Shit! I bet the sprockets outlive the motor.
| There are those who own and there are those who ride! 
2010 Thunderbird
2007 Kawi KX250F
2010 Kawi KX85 (My boy's ride)
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| | | Birdy68 | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 16/07/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,352 | | Location | : | Bad Zurzach, Aargau, Switzerland |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 13:45 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: CornerBanger) | | | OK - on a lighter and serious note:
CornerBanger wrote:
... I bet the sprockets outlive the motor. |
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I'll take you up on that one sir!
An evening of pint filled Guinness's would be my wager!
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Serious - the one reason I'm keenly watching this thread is to see how Daz responds to the BB-Kit installation.
I'm curious - I do hope he likes it!
| Birdy68
-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-
Leave the pork pies for now - get the sausage rolls while they're hot!
-x- -x-
more info at Fuelly.com
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| | | daz | | Zeus | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 14:16 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info | | | I thought the same thing. Not that a pulley should necassarily last thru a dozen belts or anything like that. But that gates article suggests ours with this new coating should last as much as 5 to 1. But they are saying current pulleys, such as HD run i assume, average about 40k. I'm not saying thats true tho, so don't lambaste me for that.....i'm just making the point that when you read something like that and it's from the manufacturer of the belt itself, then you hear something similar from someone like Mickey, maybe it's just me but it's hard to just blow that off. Harleys are said to go up to 100k, but word from the mouths of those who should know much more than us is hard to ignore. Thats all. here is the part of the article that are relevant.
| Gates engineers took on the challenge. They knew the limitations of conventional belt drives, whose die-cast or billet aluminum sprockets typically lasted only 2,000 ??? 5,000 miles. Gates is no newcomer to motorcycle belt drives. Earlier drive designs with Gates Poly Chain??? GT??? belts running on hard chrome finished sprockets were lasting 30,000 ??? 50,000 miles. Belt and sprockets wore at about the same rate, so manufacturers advised users to replace both at the same interval. |
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So you can see why i felt some reason to question at least the harley 100k notion. But ours should outlast a few belts so if i DO need a belt i have peace of mine that i won't have to replace the pulleys. i would however probably replace the rear just because i've been wanting the chrome one, especially now with the shorties.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 20 Oct 2010 - 14:20 |
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| | | CornerBanger | | Jupiter | | | | Reg. Date | : | 07/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 1,113 | | Location | : | Charleston, SC, United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 14:32 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: Birdy68) | | |
Birdy68 wrote:
OK - on a lighter and serious note:
CornerBanger wrote:
... I bet the sprockets outlive the motor. |
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I'll take you up on that one sir!
An evening of pint filled Guinness's would be my wager!
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Serious - the one reason I'm keenly watching this thread is to see how Daz responds to the BB-Kit installation.
I'm curious - I do hope he likes it!
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A Guinness it is. If I loose it will cost me big because the trip form the US to Switzerland will be pricey...
| There are those who own and there are those who ride!
2010 Thunderbird
2007 Kawi KX250F
2010 Kawi KX85 (My boy's ride)
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| | | CornerBanger | | Jupiter | | | | Reg. Date | : | 07/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 1,113 | | Location | : | Charleston, SC, United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 14:36 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: daz) | | |
daz wrote:
I thought the same thing. Not that a pulley should necassarily last thru a dozen belts or anything like that. But that gates article suggests ours with this new coating should last as much as 5 to 1. But they are saying current pulleys, such as HD run i assume, average about 40k. I'm not saying thats true tho, so don't lambaste me for that.....i'm just making the point that when you read something like that and it's from the manufacturer of the belt itself, then you hear something similar from someone like Mickey, maybe it's just me but it's hard to just blow that off. Harleys are said to go up to 100k, but word from the mouths of those who should know much more than us is hard to ignore. Thats all. here is the part of the article that are relevant.
| Gates engineers took on the challenge. They knew the limitations of conventional belt drives, whose die-cast or billet aluminum sprockets typically lasted only 2,000 ??? 5,000 miles. Gates is no newcomer to motorcycle belt drives. Earlier drive designs with Gates Poly Chain??? GT??? belts running on hard chrome finished sprockets were lasting 30,000 ??? 50,000 miles. Belt and sprockets wore at about the same rate, so manufacturers advised users to replace both at the same interval. |
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So you can see why i felt some reason to question at least the harley 100k notion. But ours should outlast a few belts so if i DO need a belt i have peace of mine that i won't have to replace the pulleys. i would however probably replace the rear just because i've been wanting the chrome one, especially now with the shorties. |
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I am not lambasting you per say. I just wanted you to take a breather, step back, and look at it from a logical stance.
Also, I found a company Link that will take your sprocket and chrome it for 150 dollars. I am going to go that route in about a month.
| There are those who own and there are those who ride!
2010 Thunderbird
2007 Kawi KX250F
2010 Kawi KX85 (My boy's ride)
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 15:25 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: CornerBanger) | | | Just a word of caution, someone else had thiers chromed here and when they do that it chromes over the teeth too. in fact, i believe when they chrome them they have to strip it down so the coating on the teeth will one way or another be rendered ineffective as described in that article. In other words, no more miracle coating. It's your call, but you may want to consider either buying a chrome one or doing what someone else here did and strip the outer coating and polish it. Theres a thread buried deep here somewhere with pics of the polished pulley and it looks real good. I will likely buy the chrome one, and theres a store that sells Tbird accessories at a pretty good discount. i think the pulley was $380 or somewhere thereabouts. i'll see if i can find it. In fact i just nay do this soon myself. almost did a few weeks back.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | Domino | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 29/08/2010 | | Posts | : | 230 | | Location | : | Portsmouth, Hampshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 16:27 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: CornerBanger) | | | CornerBanger wrote:
*snip*
1. The sprocket is metal.
2. The belt is not.
3. Combine 1 & 2 and the belt is the wear item by a huge margin.
*snip*
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Hi CornerBanger,
I don't wish disagree with your overall argument and I have no intention of fueling fears about belt/pulley wear but I just wanted to pick up on this point.
Just because one component is harder than another, that it rubs against, doesn't follow that it will be harder wearing. What tends to cause the damage between two bearing surfaces is not the respective materials but the grit that gets between them. It is quite often the case that the harder surface will suffer ablation as the softer more flexible surface grinds the grit against it.
If the pulleys outlast the belt it will be due, in no small part, to the durability of the Gates Armour-GK coating rather than the 'metal' surface to which it is applied.
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Best money I ever spent.
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 17:20 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: Domino) | | | Right...water and grit. The universal solvent. Ask the diamond cutters.
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| | | CornerBanger | | Jupiter | | | | Reg. Date | : | 07/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 1,113 | | Location | : | Charleston, SC, United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 18:36 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: Domino) | | |
Domino wrote:
CornerBanger wrote:
*snip*
1. The sprocket is metal.
2. The belt is not.
3. Combine 1 & 2 and the belt is the wear item by a huge margin.
*snip*
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Hi CornerBanger,
I don't wish disagree with your overall argument and I have no intention of fueling fears about belt/pulley wear but I just wanted to pick up on this point.
Just because one component is harder than another, that it rubs against, doesn't follow that it will be harder wearing. What tends to cause the damage between two bearing surfaces is not the respective materials but the grit that gets between them. It is quite often the case that the harder surface will suffer ablation as the softer more flexible surface grinds the grit against it.
If the pulleys outlast the belt it will be due, in no small part, to the durability of the Gates Armour-GK coating rather than the 'metal' surface to which it is applied. |
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In the big picture I agree but one must consider the environment the bike is subjected to before going down that road. These are road bikes not dirt bikes. Some grit will get between the pulley and the belt but not constantly and in very small quantities. Not to mention the grit does not remain there, it gets spit out. These bikes are not running the Dakar, they are running on the roads which are clean for the most part. Proof is in true real world testing. Go inspect all the HDs running around and ask their owners of they have belt and pulley issues.
| There are those who own and there are those who ride!
2010 Thunderbird
2007 Kawi KX250F
2010 Kawi KX85 (My boy's ride)
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| | | mag10 | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 05/02/2010 | | Posts | : | 485 | | Location | : | Wisconsin, United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 21:54 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: CornerBanger) | | | I would like to make a motion that WE table this discussion for a few years so that some real data on belt/pulley life can be collected.
Then the beating of the dead horse can continue.
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| | | MickeyBoy | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 18/09/2010 | | Posts | : | 553 | | Location | : | WiNe CoUnTrY TeMeCuLa, Socialist State of Kalifornia, United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Oct 2010 - 22:41 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: CornerBanger) | | |
CornerBanger wrote:
In the big picture I agree but one must consider the environment the bike is subjected to before going down that road. These are road bikes not dirt bikes. Some grit will get between the pulley and the belt but not constantly and in very small quantities. Not to mention the grit does not remain there, it gets spit out. These bikes are not running the Dakar, they are running on the roads which are clean for the most part. Proof is in true real world testing. Go inspect all the HDs running around and ask their owners of they have belt and pulley issues. |
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Unless you are like me and live on a dirt road. It's 1.5 miles, 2.4 km for you right handed folks, from my house to the hardball. 3 miles or 4.8 km, again for our right handed brethren, I ride on decomposed granite and I must say that I have yet to notice any serious wear on my pulley or belt after 4300 miles (6920 km). I wash my bike down weekly and dust her with an air hose in between.
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| | | CornerBanger | | Jupiter | | | | Reg. Date | : | 07/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 1,113 | | Location | : | Charleston, SC, United States |
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| | Posted : 21 Oct 2010 - 12:14 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: mag10) | | |
mag10 wrote:
I would like to make a motion that WE table this discussion for a few years so that some real data on belt/pulley life can be collected.
Then the beating of the dead horse can continue. |
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Amen
| There are those who own and there are those who ride!
2010 Thunderbird
2007 Kawi KX250F
2010 Kawi KX85 (My boy's ride)
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| | | mat1600 | | Thunderbird | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 25 Oct 2010 - 14:33 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: CornerBanger) | | | Just for the record. After having all that bother on my last Bird i have kept a close eye on the new Birds belt. It has been running up against the outside of the pulley and this is where I had problems before. Now I notice it is running bang on center after 4K miles. The only thing I have done is put a few extra psi in the tyres. So I have no idea at all why it has moved position.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| | | EnGage | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 14/07/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,155 | | Location | : | Grand Rapids, MI, United States |
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| | Posted : 25 Oct 2010 - 15:15 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: mat1600) | | | mat1600 wrote:
Just for the record. After having all that bother on my last Bird i have kept a close eye on the new Birds belt. It has been running up against the outside of the pulley and this is where I had problems before. Now I notice it is running bang on center after 4K miles. The only thing I have done is put a few extra psi in the tyres. So I have no idea at all why it has moved position.
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my guess is it means you have fairly neutral alignment.
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| | | mat1600 | | Thunderbird | | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 25 Oct 2010 - 15:57 Post title : Re: BB kit a go + belt info (Re: EnGage) | | | Yes - but after all this time ?. I notice it has got a bit slacker though - I shall leave it at that as it is ok and let them sort it out with the 6k service.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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