|  | Topic : Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! |  |
| | | daz | | Zeus |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 09 Oct 2010 - 16:53 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: DizzE) | | | Yeah, i was wondering if can bus had anything to do with the reason for the low resistance. I'm gonna go to radio shack right now and see if 10 ohmers will do the trick. Thanks dizze....you're one smart so'bitch !
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 09 Oct 2010 - 17:36 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | ahhhh....well...talent on loan from WEB. I do appreciate the kind words. 
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| | | mat1600 | | Thunderbird | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 09 Oct 2010 - 18:21 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: DizzE) | | | ..................... and remove packaging before consumption.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 15:05 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! | | | Heres the latest. I tried the 10 ohm resistors and the engine check light was off when i started the bike. However, it went on by the time i got to the bottom of my street about 100 yards away. I found out why....10 ohms is for most intents and purposes a dead short. I had no idea how the heater circuit works, whether there are voltages there that can fry a resistor, but thats what happened. Both side the resistors burned and melted the plug. So they will likely have to be replaced to get the old resistors out and some new ones in. Or chris at dobeck will likely send new plugs for it to whoever tries it next, and i am in fact done with it and will send it to you atadude, if you still want it. Chris told me you contacted him and wanted to try one. So it's yours if you want it. I only ask that if you find you don't end up using it that you send it to another member. It does work, but till the resistor issue is figured out you can only fuel the midrange and top, not the low end. I'm warning you tho, i found no improvment with my bike with short tors, uni filter and seat duct removed. The bike always ran better with the fueling at the lowest setting which is no extra fuel on top of whatever the map asigns, so the same as having the module disconnected. I am not saying it doesn't work or can't do what it is supposed to, only that my bike is apparently alreadt fuels close enough to optimal so that it needs no extra fuel. I suspect it is the tors map that is responsible for that. Mickey said it appeared the tors map is no different than the stock map as far as fueling goes, but i suspect he was wrong because why would the map make so much difference in performance, which it did. Before i got the tune i ran the bike a week with the tors and it ran like absolute crap. The tors map made it run normal again, then much stronger than normal once i dumped the long tors for the shorts. So it has to be fueled richer. What else would cause that? I can't imagine the tors map would have different timing, and thats the only other thing i can see boosting the power. So the theory is that since the tors are illegal on the street anyways, triumph may have figured no reason to map it lean. This is just a theory but i don't know what else to think. a
Anyways atadude, if you want it pm me your address. You will have to determine what resistors to use on the heater circuit and change them. You may also not be able to do that in the plugs i send with it because they are partially melted. But whether you use them or chris sends you new plugs you will have to changed them till you find one that isn't too small a value so that it burns, and not so high that it triggers the check light. A 330 ohm was too high and a 10 too low and it burned. I also smelled something that seemed like a slight burning when i tried it with the 330's. so i suspect those were also too small even tho they didn't burn. They were probably heating up to where they almost did tho. So i suspect it needs a higher value still. I would try a 1k and keep raising it till the light stays off. But it won't go off till the bike cycles a few times, so it will be a bit of a hassle. If I were to keep it, i'd try a set of aligator clips in the plugs and that way you can try various resistor values quickly. Other wise it's a pain changing them. You'll see whay once you have it and try !
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | ataDude | | Chaac | | | Reg. Date | : | 19/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 527 | | Location | : | Texas, United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 15:25 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | I'll pass. If Dobeck/Chris cannot show me the courtesy of contacting me directly (they do have all of my contact info), they're welcome to sort it out on their own.
That's a shame as I was a fan of their products.
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| | Post edited by ataDude on 10 Oct 2010 - 15:28 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 15:35 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: ataDude) | | | Ok, well i guess i'll give it one more try. I was actually considering that after i thought of the alligator clips, but i'd already PM'd you. So i'll give it another go in a couple weeks after i get it back from service. If i can find the correct resistor, assuming thats even possible, i will still send it to someone else, IF i end up feeling i don't need it. I may keep it tho if it ends up helping. It may be that with the sensor fault it causes something to happen fueling wise that causes the dobeck not to help. Who knows. So if i send it off i will have to find another member, and one comes to mind immediately...Dizze. He's been so helpful to all of us in his work with the tuneECU guy. So Dizze, if i decide to send it off let me know if you're up for it. I'm not even sure i will try it again so i may just send it off right away. I have to think about this a bit.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | ataDude | | Chaac | | | Reg. Date | : | 19/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 527 | | Location | : | Texas, United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 16:06 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | One other thing that I've noticed... You never mention the actual removal of the stock O2 sensors once bypassed.
If they didn't provide plugs for the O2 bungs (like they did on my last bike with it), you are in danger of damaging your O2 sensors by running the bike with them still in, but bypassed.
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 17:22 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | daz wrote:
Ok, well i guess i'll give it one more try. I was actually considering that after i thought of the alligator clips, but i'd already PM'd you. So i'll give it another go in a couple weeks after i get it back from service. If i can find the correct resistor, assuming thats even possible, i will still send it to someone else, IF i end up feeling i don't need it. I may keep it tho if it ends up helping. It may be that with the sensor fault it causes something to happen fueling wise that causes the dobeck not to help. Who knows. So if i send it off i will have to find another member, and one comes to mind immediately...Dizze. He's been so helpful to all of us in his work with the tuneECU guy. So Dizze, if i decide to send it off let me know if you're up for it. I'm not even sure i will try it again so i may just send it off right away. I have to think about this a bit. |
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That's real nice of you and OK, I'll take you up on that....but, just to be sure....you didn't melt any t-bird parts, right? I don't think so, but just
checking.
No hurry. I think you've done the lion share of the research or this. I would continue that. We need to know this stuff about CAN O2 sensing,
dummy loading, etc. atadude's ideas about whether or not to keep the sensor in circuit should be investigated in the general case, I think.
If the heater load is ganged with the dummy load, that could account for the fry. It's just how it's wired....series or parallel.
And, I have already considered adding a wide band sensor for piggyback ECU apps. I don't have a TOR tune. So, maybe I could get some
improvement. But, I need a measure for that. Ideas?
I ended up getting the iPhone 4, but I haven't seen a torque app for that. Well, PM me if you want to pass it on...for the good of science. 
BTW, that's a good clue that the 10 Ohm worked for a bit. Means the ECU needs that load...just what load?
| | Post edited by DizzE on 10 Oct 2010 - 17:25 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 18:28 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: DizzE) | | | Well, it's not parallel or series with the heather because the heater is completely bypassed/disconnected. The resistor takes the place of it, and the heater reads 8.5 ohms. So i have to assume that the heater element can handle a lot of current which means it may take a huge resistor to do this. maybe a 10 watter or more, who knows. Know why to know w/o just testing it. It cooked those 1/2 watters in seconds. So it may be that it DOES want to see around 10 ohms, but whatever you use to sub for the heater it may have to handle a lot more. I'll let you figure that out, as i PM'd you to get your addy. Since you seem quite gung ho to do this i'll just pass on going further with it. I'm probably just going to wait for tuneECU since it looks like it's going to happen for us. (fingers crossed)
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 18:39 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | OK...I need to find out what exactly is the sensor spec...if it's not that one I found. There are a lot of test point procedures in the SM
as you've seen. I need to understand the total, hot harness load. So, I'm back to first principles now. I was buying the idea that it
should read open until hot. Maybe that 8.5 is "open." And when she heats up the ECU wants to see a lot more. I think I can delve a bit further.
PM sent.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 18:49 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: DizzE) | | | Well, i will send it off this week and let you figure it out. I'd be inclined to keep it up myself had i seen any kind of performance increase, but I didn't and that was wioth seat duct removal. So maybe contrary to common belief, the bike at least with the TORs tune is not lean at all. But i think you'll get to the bottom of it before i will because i just don't have the energy or drive.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | FTL40 | | Jupiter | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 13/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 1,122 | | Location | : | massachusetts, United States |
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| | Posted : 10 Oct 2010 - 23:25 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | with reguards to the tor tune, it may not add fuel but could provide changes in timing.
| 2010 tbird 1700 silver (fastest color) BC exhaust, BC airbox removal
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 11 Oct 2010 - 00:42 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: FTL40) | | | You'll see i mentioned that in my 2nd post down on this page, but i was suggesting it seems unlikely. If the TORs lean the bike out, advancing the timing wouldn't be good for the bike w/o fueling changes i'd think, and retarding it would lower performance so it's not that.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
| | Post edited by daz on 11 Oct 2010 - 01:32 |
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| | | mustang66man | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 20/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 100 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 11 Oct 2010 - 02:41 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | Just my 2 cents worth. Trying to get any of these black boxes to work, should not need an engineering degree. Something is wrong with thise picture. Do any of these guys actually own a T-Bird? or are they operating on second hand info. Myself, I'll wait until one of them buys a Bird and has it installed on their bike and road proven.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 11 Oct 2010 - 02:54 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: mustang66man) | | | Hey MM, long time ! I was wondering where you've been. Anyways, no, thats the point. They don't have one for the Tbird yet and i called them and they offered me one if i could sorta help them get one working right for the Tbird. But w/o a bird in thier possession they can't do much. So i'm thier hands and eyes, tho they haven't been able to give me much in the way of how to figure out what resistance to use. I think they need some info about the ECU and sensors that isn't available w/o having a bike there. Anyways, like i said i WAS able to use it at least for the midrange and full throttle ranges, and i just felt as tho any fuel i added brought the power down instead of up, which is why i think the tor tune may already have pretty optimal fueling. But i also could adjust the low end which equates to the pilot jet on a carb, but the problem was the engine check lite stays on. So i could use it tho at first when i had the 330 ohm resistors in there. Anyways, the point i'm getting to is when i did try the low range it was the only of the 3 ranges i seemed to get some improvement. Not sure how much, as i didn't play with it long before i just plugged the sensors back in. But the point here is that it makes perfect sense...the low range is where the sensors are active and where emissions are checked for the required standards. the mid and high ranges are where i felt no improvement. see what i'm getting at? It looks like triumph may have only leaned the bike out in the low range where emissions are checked but not in the mid and high ranges. that may be why there was no improvement in the mid and high but seemed to be some in the low range. i did remove the seat duct tho, and i would have thought the extra airflow would allow more fuel to give better power, but i guess not. It's all speculation but it does make sense if you think about it. anyways, good to see you're back.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | mustang66man | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 20/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 100 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 11 Oct 2010 - 03:23 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: daz) | | | Yeh I'm still around. Had a busy summer moving from Idaho to central Tennessee. What a riders dream, get off the freeways on to the secondary roads and it all the curves you could ever want, and Tennessee has some of the best roads i've ever been on. I check in from time to time to see whats new. I'm in California doing my yearly trip to the nuclear plant for some easy money, and yes I have my bike with me.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 11 Oct 2010 - 04:09 Post title : Re: Woo hoooo.....dobeck performance module is on the way ! (Re: mustang66man) | | | And this time you didn't have to worry whether the belt would make it there and back. :)
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 21 Oct 2010 - 15:44 Post title : Re: dobeck performance module (Re: daz) | | | Hmmmm....so, daz sent me the device. Synopsis....the resistors melted.
So, I'm taking a look. But, I always wondered about this Ox sensor and how that had anything to do with it.
On the diagrams, the Ox sensor is not in the harness with the injectors. Now, daz was only going by what
he was sold,.,.,ah, I mean told. It looks to me that the resistors are for the impedance matching with the
injectors. If anyone one works with amplifiers they know...It has to be matched. What impedance to match?
Does anyone know about this? I found a bit on the web. Old Harley guys breaking records on the Salt
We don't want to fry the ECU.
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Link
RSR Closed Loop Fuel Injection ECUs can support both low and high impedance injectors. Up to 8 low impedance or up to 32 high impedance injectors.
RSR AIC 400 Additional Injector Controllers can support up to four (4) high impedance injectors. The RSR AIC 400 will support one (1) low impedance injector without a ballast resistor or up to two low impedance injectors with external ballast resistors.
Ballast resistors are commonly used on Toyota and Honda cars (early) and are a form of heat sink with a resistance value of around 7 ohms per injector. The ballast resistor is installed between the 12VDc battery positive and the fuel injector's 12VDc lead wire. The fuel injectors "ground" in the ECU to "fire" and the ballast resistor prevents the injector or ECU from overheating. Typically we never use the ballast resistors and stay exclusively with the below listed high impedance (12 to 16 Ohm) RC Racing Fuel Injectors...for a simple reason, they use less current.
Voltage / Resistance in Ohms = Current in Amps. Example: 13.8VDc / 16 Ohm = .8625 Amps; 13.8VDc / 2.5 Ohms = 5.52 Amps. As you can see the electrical amperage load increase rapidly with low impedance injectors.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 21 Oct 2010 - 16:35 Post title : Re: dobeck performance module (Re: DizzE) | | | Well, like i've said, there are 2 possibilities. 1-a very small value like 10 ohms may work but they fried when i tried them. But i measured the resistance of the heater and it was 8.5 ohms, so possibly thats what it needs but in a larger wattage. 2-it may need a higher resistance value. however, considering that the check light went on with a 330 ohm, i assume thats too high because the 10 ohms did NOT trigger the light till they fried. So i'm thinking it's somewhere between a 10 and 330 ohm but may require a 5 or 10 watt, but It's hard to say. I would possibly fear using a higher wattage tho because it may keep the resistor from smoking but give it time to fry the heater. If you want to be safe tru HIGHER than 330 and keep trying higher and higher. The 330's didn't smoke so you know your safe. But then from what i've told you it would seem heading in that direction may not be the direction needed. If i were you i'd take this info and call chris at dobeck and see if any of that might help him give you the likeliest way to go with it.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 21 Oct 2010 - 17:01 Post title : Re: dobeck performance module (Re: daz) | | | Well, that's all assuming you are replacing the Ox heater with a resistor. What if you are supposed to be protecting the
injector and it just so happened you were good at Roulette. There's just not enough info. I think bypassing the Ox may
a different issue.
And what does Chris care if Injectors are fried because he doesn't want to admit he doesn't know how to match
injector impedance on this bike? Just rhetorical...you aren't aren't his agent, so I know you can't answer.
Read that Eat Shit section on that link I posted. I'm only bold with software. When things start melting and the Chris-types
can only advise try again, good luck. Then I apply valor. I get suspicious and start to try to understand the
problem. I revisited the injector question, in total.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 21 Oct 2010 - 18:04 Post title : Re: dobeck performance module (Re: DizzE) | | | well, then you can always do what i did and forget the low end fueling and keep the sensors plugged in and just try fueling the mid and high ranges. if you can't get anything worthwhile out of that and aren't going to use it, maybe post and offer it to another member. Someone may find it worthwhile even if we didn't.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 21 Oct 2010 - 19:42 Post title : Re: dobeck performance module (Re: daz) | | | Well, if anyone wants to try it, I will be glad to send it. I'll keeping studying the question about impedance.
If I ever do an injector up grade, the knowledge will be useful.
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