|  | Topic : Belt drive relief finally, & some observations |  |
| | | daz | | Zeus |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,705 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 05 Sep 2010 - 21:48 Post title : Belt drive relief finally, & some observations | | | Ok, i seem to have figured it out somewhat and realized a mistake i made when i first try to figure this mess out. That would be moving the bike a few feet to get the belt to reside wherever it's going to gravitate to after i adjust the wheel. If you recall i adjusted it bit by bit each time moving the bike till the belt began to pull away from the outside flange. And as u recall at that point the adjusters were a full mark off from each other. Well, today I noticed more of that ribbed area on top of the belt separating, so since i was heading out for a long ride i figured i better adjust it a bit to relieve the pressure against the flange. I then took off and to my surprise i looked at it after about a 1/2 mile and the belt was riding against the inside flange ! So i took it back home and looked at the marks and i guess i turned it more than i thought because the marks were pretty far off, tho not nearly a whole mark different as b4. So i got it to where it was a bit less than 1/2 a mark different and took off figuring it would go back to the outside flange but at least it would not be pressured so hard against it and the alignment wouldn't be off so much as to make the bike handle odd like b4. Again i was surprised to find after a mile it was still riding against the inside flange ! So i am going to adjust it a tiny bit more and try it for a mile, then keep repeating till it moves over to the outside flange, then back it off a hair so it just starts going back to the inside flange. I figure at that point it will be perfectly adjusted because while the wheel will be a bit out of alignment, it won't be bad because even on my ride today it felt fine, and with a bit more adjustment it will be even better. That is assuming it CAN go further in the proper alignment direction w/o wandering to the outside edge.
That said, i now believe that it SHOULD run against the outside edge. The reason should be apparent by looking at my belt's damage then looking at the difference between the outer flange and the inner.Look at the pic below. It shows a couple shots of the damage and a drawing i did of the pulley. The outer flange (B) as you see in the drawing is just square. Als0, the inside where the belt was riding is the same rough finish as the outer gray area of the pulley.....that textured gray paint. So as you can imagine, any pressure on the edge of the belt can result in the damage you see as the rough inner edge pulls at the belt edge as the belt leaves the pulley on it's travel. Now look at the inner pulley edge, A in the picture. As you know it's not a molded part of the pulley but a bolted on chrome plate with the edge beveled so as not to pull on the belts edge as it leaves the pully. That bevel plus the smooth chrome finish is why you WANT the belt to run against the inside flange !
All these things are things i had to figure out myself because no one knows ! The dealer didn't tell me anything because he didn't know. I told him how i did it and he never told me you can't just wheel the bike 10 feet to see where the belt will ride, nor did he tell me it should ride on the inside flange. I now believe it SHOULD ride the inside flange....it makes perfect sense. True, it will require the wheel be slightly out of alignment, but as long as the bike rides and handles correctly, what does it matter, and the belt won't be damaged. It's also bizarre that moving the bike 10 feet back then forward DOES make the belt change position after an adjustment thats great enough to cause it. Yet if instead of doing it that way you ride it a few blocks or a mile after each time you adjust it, that will cause the belt to change it's position with much less adjustment. In other words, adjusting then moving bike 10 feet and repeat until the belt moved over required twice as much adjustment out of alignment than it did by riding a ways after each adjustment. No one told me that either because no one knew or they'd have mentioned it when i described what i did.
So to sum up, the belt system CAN be adjusted correctly w/o the wheel being out of alignment to a flawed degree. I still think they need to make it more precise be it by increasing the thickness of the inner flange plate or adding a shim. But at least as it is things are ok. However, it's also a REAL PITA to get it right ! I have short TORs coming in the mail from a member who was selling them here, and for now on it will be worlds easier. Those of you with shorties will be glad you got them over the longs ! With the longs you have to undo the muffler to get to the axl bolt. Make the adjust, ride, adjust, ride method thats so tedious incredibly more tedious, which is why i used the moving the bike 10 feet method instead of riding after each adjust as I did today. shorties IMO are a necessity on this bike now !
On a unrelated note, good go i can't believe how much better this bike runs on 89 octane than 87 ! No, i didn't just discover this. I said this in the past. But you know how it is....after a while and being used to running 89, you tend to forget. well, today i tried 87 (regular in the USA) again just to refresh my memory and be sure it really does make a difference. I gotta tell you, it seemed even bigger than when i 1st tried it. I used about 1/2 a tank about 1/2 way thru my ride and was not enjoying the ride much because the bike felt so weak. It was a real dog in the twisties. I thought this can't be because of the regular....not this much difference. So 1/2 a tank down i filled up with premium (91 octane) figuring a 1/2 tank of 91 and 1/2 tank of 87 will give me the equivalent of mid grade 89. NEVER AGAIN WILL I USE 87 !!! The rest of the ride was like a new bike. The power was back in a big way. Amazing, truly amazing how much difference it makes. easily much more than pipes and filter did. I'm still not sure those even made any improvement !
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | ataDude | | Chaac | | | Reg. Date | : | 19/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 527 | | Location | : | Texas, United States |
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| | Posted : 05 Sep 2010 - 23:36 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: daz) | | | One more time (and the last)... I adjust my belt on a jack with the engine running in third gear. No adjust/ride/adjust/ride. Just adjust and tighten it up.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,705 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 05 Sep 2010 - 23:42 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: ataDude) | | | Yeah, i know and it's definately a good way. But mine just seems too shakey on the jack so i'm a bit leary. If my bike ever fell over it would destroy literally a few thousand dollars worth of my friend's (who i sublet a rear house from) business inventory and she would kill me. If i had more room and the bike was more stable i'd have done that by now. On the other hand, once i have the shorties on i will be able to do it quickly enough. By the way, do you try and center the belt or at least get it centered then let it barely rest on the flange, and if so where do you then find your L/R alignment marks are relative to each other?
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | ataDude | | Chaac | | | Reg. Date | : | 19/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 527 | | Location | : | Texas, United States |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 01:28 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: daz) | | | I don't pay attention to the marks at all.
Once jacked up... I adjust the tension. Then with it running, I adjust the run out on both front and rear pulleys by moving the adjusters in very small increments. Like I said in another post... when my belt is centered on the rear, the front is half off the pulley. I worry more about the front as it has no rim on one side.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,705 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 01:36 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: ataDude) | | | Thats odd. (1/2 off front pulley) So when you have it where you want it, where is the belt on the rear pulley? If it runs partially off the front pulley when centered on the rear, wouldn't that mean if you ran it against the inner flange like i said that the belt would come off the front pulley? Some have said thiers is running against the inner flange like mine is now, so i imagine they aren't coming off the front. Just trying to figure this out. It is possible that with the tire in the air like that the belt will run differently than once on the ground. Could be the belt is only coming partially off the front when the rear wheel is in the air.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | davetac1 | | Thunderbird | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/09/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,379 | | Location | : | Haverhill, Ma., United States |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 03:39 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: ataDude) | | | Hi Das.I finally made it over here from the other site.lol And I see what you mean with your belt question and your resolve.I haven't had to get into it yet,but when I do,I'll try to remember what you said.In the meantime,I have a friend who is a service manager at a Honda shop and is quite knowledgeable.So I'm gonna give him a call Tuesday and see what his explanation is for the belt being off center.I'll report back what I find out.OK?? And BTW,from what I've seen here so far,this site does looks pretty good. Thanks for steering me here. Dave!!!
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,705 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 05:06 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: davetac1) | | | Glad ya made it. The more the merrier !
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | fab | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 2,515 | | Location | : | wyong, nsw, Australia |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 06:50 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: daz) | | | this is where my belt runs on the inside of the pulley 1-2mm off it .
glade you have finally got it sorted
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Remember, soft cocks hang around all life long, hard ones come and go
ahh f**k im deep
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| | | Loubird | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 09/12/2009 | | Posts | : | 105 | | Location | : | Campbelltown, NSW, Australia |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 07:57 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: fab) | | | You are dead right Daz. I've never taken much notice of my belt and pulley until you had issues with yours. I've only ever adjusted it after it got loose. I use a 21mm open ended/ring spanner with the longer pipes no problem.
I just got a new rear tyre a month ago that was changed by the dealer cause i was too lazy to take the rear wheel off myself.
I just looked at my belt and it is just on the inside edge of the rear pulley (A) and sits right in the middle of the front pulley, so my guy knew exactly what he was doing. Looks just like the picture of yours. Now I know if I have to tighten the belt again. Thanks
cheers 
| Love my TBird
| | Post edited by Loubird on 06 Sep 2010 - 08:00 |
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| | | EnGage | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 14/07/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,155 | | Location | : | Grand Rapids, MI, United States |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 13:21 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: daz) | | | I've never touched my belt - just let the dealer take care of it and it has run against the inside edge for as long as I can remember. I don't know if they plan it that way or not. What I do know is that after 13,000 miles, the belt still looks new. The other thing I have noticed is that they adjust it on the loose side. I've only looked at the tightness of the belt a couple of times and each time is was obviously looser than spec, but I was having no issues so I left it be.
Concerning alignment, the left-hand adjust is 3.25 marks back and the right side is 3.5 marks back. Again, I don't know if this is by design or not.
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| | | mat1600 | | Thunderbird | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 06/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,596 | | Location | : | Bridlington, Democratic Independant State of Yorkshire, United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 14:54 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: EnGage) | | | At Triumph Live there is a Technical seminar and lecture being given by a couple of the engineers. I guess there will be questions session , so if I get the chance I will try and get a bit of info. That is of course if I get in there before the Bar !!!!.
| My first natural instinct is to breathe. My second is to evade tax's.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,705 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 19:22 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations | | | Well, the fact some run *correctly* on the inside flange goes to show how lame the triumph organization is. Mine came with it running on the outside. So it came wrong from the factory or dealer, whichever was responsible for that. I will contest the belt for renewal under warranty using this info at my 12k service. If they cite i adjusted it myself as a reason not to honor my claim, i will explain how it came with the belt riding the outer flange, and i know thats not right now and i know it's the reason for the damage. They may not honor it, but they will have to fight me off hard and long first, and i'll let them know this will be my last triumph if they don't.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | Jamie | | Set | | | Reg. Date | : | 22/08/2010 | | Posts | : | 65 | | Location | : | Geneva, Switzerland |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 19:46 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: daz) | | |
daz wrote:
If they cite i adjusted it myself as a reason not to honor my claim, i will explain how it came with the belt riding the outer flange, and i know thats not right now and i know it's the reason for the damage. They may not honor it, but they will have to fight me off hard and long first, and i'll let them know this will be my last triumph if they don't. |
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Your last triumph indeed  .
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,705 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 06 Sep 2010 - 19:55 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: Jamie) | | | Shhhhhh ! They may be watching !!!
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | davetac1 | | Thunderbird | | | Reg. Date | : | 06/09/2010 | | Posts | : | 8,379 | | Location | : | Haverhill, Ma., United States |
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| | Posted : 07 Sep 2010 - 18:11 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: daz) | | | I contacted my buddy this AM regarding the belt issue discussed on this forum.He said that,just the other week,he and a bunch of other service managers and techs from many of motorcycle dealerships around this area, attended a seminar put on by the Jap and HD people to answer any questions about any problems or concerns that any of these gentlemen may be having with the machines they service.Well guess what the main concern was?? Give up?? lol "The belt drive system". And the biggest concern was the belt moving towards the center of the wheel.According to the instructors at the seminar,the reason the belt moves to the left,looking at it from the rear of the machine,is because of the torque transmitted to the rear wheel under acceleration,whether it be on a straight a way or coming out of a corner,causes the rear cog to flex 1 1000th.It ain't much,but according to them,that 1 1000th is enough to cause that belt to move inward.And,it is NORMAL for this to happen on ALL BELT DRIVE MOTORCYCLES. They also stated that as long as the inside edge of the belt isn't shiny or showing signs of deterioration or wear caused from hitting that thrust piece which keeps the belt from traveling off the rear wheel cog,you should be ok.So there ya have it. Told ya we'd find an answer!! lol Dave!!!
| | Post edited by davetac1 on 07 Sep 2010 - 18:52 |
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,705 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 07 Sep 2010 - 19:46 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: davetac1) | | | Well, the think is that what they are saying seems not to be the case. About the belt's propensity to ride towards the inner flange just is not true. With the wheel in alignment it tend to go the other way. Thats the only issue i cannot understand. Because as i said it's now very obvious it was DESIGNED to run against the inner flange which is why it has that beveled shape and is smooth chrome. But that being where it should by all reasoning be, why then is the bike designed in a way that has it traveling the *wrong* way when the wheel is in alignment?
That said, it's ok because as i said before, to get it to ride against the inner flange put's the wheel out of alignment but only a small negligible amount. Still it makes no sense unless thats just an insurmountable problem with belts in general. But the way i see it a belt system should be such that when the wheel is in perfect alignment the belt should be in the middle or just barely gravitating to one side, and that side should have a smooth beveled flange. In short, our system really isn't far for right now that i've figured it out for the most part, no thanks to triumph.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | EnGage | | Thor | | | | Reg. Date | : | 14/07/2009 | | Posts | : | 3,155 | | Location | : | Grand Rapids, MI, United States |
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| | Posted : 08 Sep 2010 - 18:40 Post title : Re: Belt drive relief finally, & some observations (Re: daz) | | | But if they are designed to ride against the outside, then why does mine ride against the inside?
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