|  | Topic : Tune Warning. |  |
| | | daz | | Zeus |  |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 19 Jul 2010 - 21:47 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: mad_angler1) | | | Hmmmm....i wonder if thats why my bike runs better with higher octane than is recommended? They don't tell you anything about using a higher octane when you get tors tho. But probably more people use the tor or BB tune than stock, so i wonder if this would explain why a lot of us found higher octane runs stronger. By the way, after several tanks of fuels that were mixed (IE: 1/2 tank of regular + 1/2 premium=mid grade etc etc) and running pure premium and eventually trying regular again, theres little doubt for me that mine runs best on mid grade. Pure premium seemed to make it sluggish and regular is in between that and mid grade which runs nice and strong.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | mad_angler1 | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 18/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 511 | | Location | : | United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 19 Jul 2010 - 21:58 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: daz) | | | the big problem with fuel these days is its not really standard any more, it all falls under the octane rating however big garages mix it slightly differently, take here in the UK Tesco (massive supermarket chain) have there own unique mix, iv got a 170bhp diesel Seat and it runs like a bag on nails on the Tesco Diesel, i definitely loose at least 10bhp, if i fill it at a small independent station its completely different.
95 aint 95 everywhere now
| | Post edited by mad_angler1 on 19 Jul 2010 - 22:02 |
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| | | Stockwell | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 27/11/2009 | | Posts | : | 74 | | Location | : | Austria |
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| | Posted : 19 Jul 2010 - 22:03 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: mad_angler1) | | | mad_angler1 wrote:
a few questions,
will it idle with out throttle ?
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When the engine is hot (after a ride), and I start the engine like after a 2 minute break, it won't idle without throttle. Just runs for about 3-5 seconds, then stalls.
does it idle then drop in PRM until it stalls?
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Yep.
Does it do it when cold and warm of just one?
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When cold it will idle just fine, only when the engine is hot this issue persists.
with out seeing the diagnostic live date i cant tell you to much however triumph has a clear procedure for these kind of faults that dealers SHOULD be doing, the dealer must fill in a diagnostic information sheet, they take all the readings from the bike when cold then warm, fax that off to the factory and they will then give you an idea of where to look.
most idling problems are either leaking air, O2 sensor or MAP issues, the engine management is in closed loop once warm when idling so its relying on the Map sensors, O2 sensors and temp sensor.
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Could it have anything to do with the fact that I use the Triumph high flow air filter, plus the plastic air ducts underneath the seat are removed (had to brutally cut it off from the longhaul seat, so no going back to "stock" there)?
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 19 Jul 2010 - 22:15 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: Stockwell) | | |
Could it have anything to do with the fact that I use the Triumph high flow air filter, plus the plastic air ducts underneath the seat are removed (had to brutally cut it off from the longhaul seat, so no going back to "stock" there)? |
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I can answer that....no. Mine did the exact same thing and the tors tune also fixed it. And mine did it since new, completely stock, no alterations at all.
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | mad_angler1 | | Chaac | | | | Reg. Date | : | 18/10/2009 | | Posts | : | 511 | | Location | : | United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 19 Jul 2010 - 22:40 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: Stockwell) | | | this is very interesting, you issue is almost identical to what i had after i fitted the BB kit,
whats happening is your engine is to rich at idle, the reason it only happens when hot is the idle stepper motor kick's in when the engine is cold to hold open the throttle butterflies to help cold starting and running as it adds more fuel , once the engine is up to temp the motor returns the butterflies to there normal closed position.
you have a air leak somewhere, the engine is drawing in air from somewhere thats bypassing the MAP sensors.
to explain,
your ECU is looking at the MAP sensors and seeing say 90mg of air, however your really getting in say 130mg into they cylinder, this then burns and is very lean as the ECU has only added enough fuel for 90mg, your O2 sensors in the exhausts are then seeing a very lean burn and instructing the ECU to add more fuel, however this contradicts what the map sensors are reading is going in, the ECU is then constantly trying to adapt to a condition that it cant find the middle ground, the ECU keeps adding fuel and you then go rich causing the stall, the ECU cant adapt as the two sensors (MAP and O2) are giving completely different reading.
so whats the fault?
1: Air leak somewhere, most likely where the throttle bodies meet the head, also check all MAP sensors pipes are fitted correctly and not crimped as this will cause them to see a lower reading.
2: faulty map sensors or O2 sensors, would need to see the diagnostic data to tell you this.
3: CAM timing, this was my problem, if you exhaust timing is retarded one tooth the valve is held open slightly longer causing you to suck exhaust gasses back from the exhaust system
4: if your bike is fitted with SAI a reed valve me be faulty letting air into the exhaust confusing the O2 sensors into thinking the mix is lean when its not.
i would like to see the live diagnostic data then i could tell you where your problems most likely is, i have learnt massive amounts about these systems recently and its pretty straight forward one you know what to look for,
if you can get your dealer to put it on the tool, check the below items.
Adaption Status - readings for all of these.
Live Data when bike is warm.
MAP sensor readings for each cylinder, Should pull down to around 190mg, any higher than 200 indicates an air leak.
O2 Sensor readings, the O2 voltage should be swinging from 100 to 900mv at least once a second, this is the reading going rich then lean as it adjusts fueling in closed loop mode, if they are at a static voltage this would indicate a permanent lean or rich condition, 500mv is 14.5/1 AF (900mv rich)
have a chat with your dealer and get them to run to tool, also ensure that have updated there tool to have the latest software as one was released last week, no tune update for the thunderbird in that one though however the January one did.
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| | | Stockwell | | Set | | | | Reg. Date | : | 27/11/2009 | | Posts | : | 74 | | Location | : | Austria |
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| | Posted : 20 Jul 2010 - 07:44 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: mad_angler1) | | | Thanks a lot for the comprehensive explanations there mate! 
That's a lot of info to go through with my dealer, got an appointment next week for some other stuff, but I will def bring this up again.
I haven't really had time to thoroughly test the reapplied stock tune yes, but I only noticed the stalling after warm starts. Hope I can spend some time today to try and maybe find situations where it stalls. If I find anything, I'll let you know.
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| | | daz | | Zeus | | | | Reg. Date | : | 12/05/2009 | | Posts | : | 7,709 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 20 Jul 2010 - 14:11 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: mad_angler1) | | | All i can say is thank god you're still hanging around here mad ! You are a wealth of info and a huge help to everyone here, and i thank you greatly for that. By the way, did you sell the bike yet?
| 2010 Blue/White Thunderbird, "Brutus". 1700 kit, short tors, gutted cat, UNI filter, filter seal off, custom tune. Brutus in his native habitat: Link
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| | | zolti | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 23/03/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,127 | | Location | : | newcastle , United Kingdom |
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| | Posted : 20 Jul 2010 - 19:29 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: daz) | | | fantastic info mad 
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| | | coneye | | Set | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 29/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 420 | | Location | : | adelaide, Australia |
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| | Posted : 31 Jul 2010 - 17:25 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: zolti) | | |
These forums are terrific , for all the info you can get from various people , which if nothing else you can use to defend yourself when trying to get things done , In other words mechanicly inept guys like me can quote and at least sound like we know a little bit .
But all in all , my experience with dealers is simple , you get a good one , who looks after you , or one that does'nt . Now in your case has was just said there is procedures they should do to fix the problem and when they don't , the procedures i would follow are simple , speak to the highest person you can at triumph , ask him by e-mail so you have a copy ,
1 - Does Triumph consider that there new bike the T Bird has idling problems ,
2-- Do you consider it normal that my NEW BIKE will not idle or perform correctly
3--- What can be done about it .
Then go back to your dealer , and tell them you have spoke to Triumph and that they do not consider there bikes should be running crap , they agree your bike should be running better and not have the problems ,
So don't ask TELL them you will be bringing it back and fully EXPECT that it be fixed or money refunded , and you want it done in a reasonable time , and if they don't you will be taking it up with Triumph that THERE dealer refuses to honor warranty .
Just do not accept its your problem .
But think one of the main things regarding issues is ALWAYS , for the life of the warranty play it by the book , correct servicing ect ect .
I think your dealer is'nt doing the right thing , I've had two seperate issuse's this week one with each of my bikes and the dealer has bent over backwards to resolve them .
Mind you thats why this is my third bike off them in 2 years .
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| | | mickey | | Set | | | Reg. Date | : | 04/08/2010 | | Posts | : | 7 | | Location | : | United States |
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| | Posted : 04 Aug 2010 - 03:57 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: daz) | | | I believe mine runs a wee bit better on premium, but the big difference is ETHANOL. There is one local station that is holding out against ethanol for as long as possible. Everybody else is selling the adulterated fuel that is about to be required by the Feds, at the insistence of the corn industry. The real stuff is noticeable better for the bike. No question about it. My Nissan V6, too. Don't let 'em lie to you: Ethanol has a lower energy content than the same volume of gasoline. It's nasty, putrid stuff to put in an engine. Ride first, then drink the ethanol! It's not good for your liver either, but at least it's entertaining that way.
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| | | DizzE | | Thor | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 12/07/2010 | | Posts | : | 3,141 | | Location | : | Sunnyvale, CA, United States |
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| | Posted : 04 Aug 2010 - 18:24 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: mickey) | | | ..agree...waste of good ethanol. Waste of good food, farmland, political capital and our tax dollars. Better than MTBE, but it's true cost to the pump is around $8.00/gal, unsubsidized.
| | Post edited by DizzE on 04 Aug 2010 - 18:24 |
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| | | Gonzo | | Chaac | |  | | Reg. Date | : | 01/05/2010 | | Posts | : | 643 | | Location | : | Sydney, NSW, Australia |
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| | Posted : 08 Aug 2010 - 12:22 Post title : Re: Tune Warning. (Re: DizzE) | | |
DizzE wrote:
..agree...waste of good ethanol. Waste of good food, farmland, political capital and our tax dollars. Better than MTBE, but it's true cost to the pump is around $8.00/gal, unsubsidized. |
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Here, here! THIS is the sort of information that needs to be told to the GREEN voting public!!!
Gonzo
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Red XIII
Mods: locking gas cap; ISO-Wings for passenger; engine guards; dresser bars; Arlen Ness LED licence plate holder, rego tube and coloured number plate; long TORs; Pilot highway pegs w/ Magnum clamps; windshield; lower deflectors (customised); ISO grips; HD switch-block; Hardstreet Slimbags (colour matched); Corbin dual tour seat; Luggage rack & bag.
Todo: Various chroming of hand-made parts, Convex mirrors
Wishlist: Mini-ape handlebars, Hard clearcoat over tank
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